Warlord's Pike & Shotte Disappointing

[Aart Brouwer]

Warlord have finally published their Renaissance rules. I'm afraid they were not worth waiting (or paying) for since they do not reflect the basics of Renaissance warfare at all. Pike & Shotte is merely an extension of Black Powder rules and principles to the English Civil War.

The following sentence at the top of page 46 summarises all its flaws:

A unit can only shoot at a target to its front quarter.

The versatility, flexibility and unique, stand-alone qualities of the major Renaissance battlefield formations are simply ignored and replaced by the linear tactics of a later age.

Imagine a Spanish escuadrón or a Swedish Brigade being able to shoot only from its front quarter... 

Meh... I'm sticking with me own rules for Renaissance. And pondering another nice, big order for Pendraken Renaissance miniatures 

Cheers,
Aart

[Steve J]

Thanks for the feedback. It will be interesting to see what others think of the rules.

[Blaker]

Thanks for update on those rules. We have been enjoying a DBA variant called DBA-RRR. Quite fun, easy to build several armies and single games under an hour to finish and multi player games lasting about two hours. I know some players are not fans of DBA but the RRR adjustments are free as well as the 100+ page file of army lists 

[Serotonin]

Ive got them but I am pretty clueless as to the rights and wrong of warfare in that era to be quite honest. I got to play  a ECW game at Salute and it was a fun game to play, building on Black Powders mechanics. Lovely book as usual with that series, but I cant add much more than that.

Are you saying that Aart that they work ok for ECW but for the rest of the era, such as 30YW they arent very good? Go slow as Im no expert on the era! 

[Aart Brouwer]

Are you saying that Aart that they work ok for ECW but for the rest of the era, such as 30YW they arent very good? Go slow as Im no expert on the era!  

Oh, I don't want to be a spoil-sport, I'm not a fascist on detail or 'historical accuracy' and I suppose these rules work well as such. Particularly for your famous Roundheads 'n Royalists. The ECW was pretty much M-P-M business on the Mauritian model, i.e. circa 400/800-strong regiments consisting of a central pike bloc with two wings of shot firing in counter-march or in closed files after the Swedish example.

But for different (and older) formations these rules don't work, particularly for the big, 'self-contained' fighting units such as the Spanish escuadrón. Rulesets like FoG Renaissance go out of their way to accommodate the many shooting, maneuvering and meleeing possibilities of these formations.

And now Warlord do the opposite.  

Anyway, Warlord's know their business and they will have their (marketing) reasons for doing this. I still think Black Powder beats everything else 18th/early 19th century, though, and I have no axe to grind. Besides I'm probably dead wrong on each and every count anyway, so let's hear it from others.

Cheers,
Aart

[Serotonin]

Ah cool cheers. Ive been toying with Swedish and Imperials for 30YW. Would that also fit with these rules or are they well off?

[Chad]

Art

I am not surprised. I thought 'Last Argument of Kings' was poor value for money.

Chad

[Aart Brouwer]

I am not surprised. I thought 'Last Argument of Kings' was poor value for money.

Well I dunno. Warlord's aren't all bad methinks. Last Argument may be overpriced and/or overproduced but at least it yields a good game, true to the rhythm and 'feel' of the period, doesn't it?

However Pike & Shotte does no such thing.

Cheers,
Aart

[Fenton]

Very interesting...People are starting to ask if the new Maurice rules could be used for 17thC warfare

[Aart Brouwer]

Very interesting...People are starting to ask if the new Maurice rules could be used for 17thC warfare

I have no idea. But if Maurice is based on linear tactics, it won't work for the 16th and early 17th centuries for reasons I already mentioned.

If it has an identical movement allowance for both small and huge units,like Pike & Shotte, it won't work either. A small 17th century unit would be, say, 400 men strong and would be able to move and change formation quickly, as opposed to the 3000-strong Spanish formations of the early period. Allowing them the exact same 'Infantry' pace of movement just doesn't cut it.

Alright, enough of them negative vibes. I'm working on (or rather finishing) my own set of TYW and ECW rules and I hope Leon will allow me to put them up one day soon for your evaluation and criticism.

Cheers,
Aart

[Leon]

Alright, enough of them negative vibes. I'm working on (or rather finishing) my own set of TYW and ECW rules and I hope Leon will allow me to put them up one day soon for your evaluation and criticism.

Yeah, no bother at all, pop me an email whenever you like.

[Sandinista]

Played the Pavia scenario the other day, found it very enjoyable. Fitted with my idea of the era.

[GordonY]

I'll stick to Regiment of Foote, but then again I'm only interested in the ECW for this period, it gives me the feeling that I think screams ECW to me, amatuer soldiers led by bungling Aristos, this set delivers that. Stuff doesnt turn up for the battle, turns up late, turns up with poorer morale/strength than it started with. When battle finally becomes joined, whole wings of your army can just stand there, picking their noses and admiring the clouds for turns at an end.

[Chad]

Maurice covers 1690-1790 so probably not suitable for earlier 17th century.

Art - I found the troop classifications to broad in LAOK and begin to wonder
how much the author researched his work when he referred to 20,000
Austrians at Blenheim. Afraid that did it for me.

Chad

[Aart Brouwer]

Played the Pavia scenario the other day, found it very enjoyable. Fitted with my idea of the era.

I'll be playing Pavia coming weekend. It's a zoo, I hear 

Maurice covers 1690-1790 so probably not suitable for earlier 17th century.

Art - I found the troop classifications to broad in LAOK and begin to wonder
how much the author researched his work when he referred to 20,000
Austrians at Blenheim. Afraid that did it for me.

Chad

Wait til you see their Trafalgar scenario with the 10.000 Undead Vikings...  

Cheers,
Aart