Pike/Musket proportions in ECW

[Last Hussar]

Evening all! 

Currently on a painting spurt for 10mm ECW. The rules I am using are "For King and Parliament"

Note: Battalia are all going to be 3 bases. The reason is that it is played on a grid - with my 30mm bases, the squares are 100mm* The bases are usually 4 rows - either pike of 4 frontage (so 15 or 16 - 15 if I put the officer/standard/drummer on the front rank) - or 9-11 Musket, typically a loose 'W' formation of men firing, with a loose W of men waiting.

FK&P has 4 types of Battalia;

Pure Pike - these I am representing with 3 bases of just pike(! I know, amazing revelation...)

Pike Heavy - 2 pike, 1 shot.

'Standard'/ '2:1' - the traditional gaming 2 shot with 1 pike in the middle.

There is also a 4th - Shot heavy. After some thought, I am basing pike stands with 2 rows of pike, with 2 of shot in front - 8 pike with 5-6 musket.

All following so far? Good

Now here's the thing...

What proportion of  'shotte heavy' units do I need to do?

Making Pike/Pike heavy units is easy - just swap the muskets out, but "Shotte Heavy" is more musket intensive.

I've committed to the specific layout - I wasn't happy with the 4 base 'diamond' shape, especially given I might need to get 2 diamonds in the same box. Additionally, the number of bases in a unit is an indication of the number of hits it has - commanded shotte has 2 bases, and 2 hits, etc.

This is important, because I find I have fewer musket than pike to paint, and you'll see a 2:1 unit has 20/16 mix, so the muskets are being used quicker anyway. With Shotte Heavy it is a 26/8 mix. I have painted some Shotte Heavy bases so I can swap the pike out.

I have enough for a game of FK&P, but would like more units to give a) a bigger game possibility, and b) the ability to vary the sides from each other.

Additionally, I am painting generically - no unit is specific to anything historic. I have/aim to have enough 'Red' units to do NMA, with a few to put on the Royalist side. If you say 'NMA tended to be more shot heavy' then I will paint the extra bases red, knowing the Royalist can use them. If balanced, then I'll paint red/blue extra bases 50/50 ish, and maybe one of the other uniforms too.

In summary;

In an army of (say) 12 battalia, how many 'Shotte heavy'? (12 battalia a side, with horse, commanded shot, forlorn hope etc also in the mix should be more than enough for a game)

Should I concentrate on doing them Red for NMA?

Cheers!

*Please note - if you are going to suggest anything else - rules/basing/grid size, do feel free, BUT NOT ON THIS THREAD  (it's like I've encountered you lot before!)

[kustenjaeger]

I know this is a painful question but are you aiming for a particular location and/or year of the ECW?  This is because the ratio of units varies by geographic location and date (and obviously between Royalist and Parliamentarian).

Edward

[Big Insect]

I know this is a painful question but are you aiming for a particular location and/or year of the ECW?  This is because the ratio of units varies by geographic location and date (and obviously between Royalist and Parliamentarian).

Edward

I agree Edward.

Some Cornish formations were 100% pike + 100% shot seperated out, but with a ratio of 2/3rds pike to 1/3rd shot, for example. Admittedly, these were exceptional. But the Cornish pike seemed to almost form up & behave like a Swiss kiel in battle!

Some of the London Trained Bands, early in the war, were almost deployed as they had been during the Elizabethan era or Bishop's Wars, and  varied considerable, with even a mix of arquebus or calivers in amongst the muskets and polearms in a large proportion to pikes.

But the NMA was rapidly transformed to a more modern 1/3rd pike to 2/3rd shot, on paper, but in reality it almost always reverted to a more pike 'heavy' ratio ... in the Swedish manner. And then there was the Montrose Scots Irish !!!!

It's a bit like saying you want to do a Hundreds Years War army ... or WOTR army ... your years of depiction & type & loyalty of the force is crucial 

[Last Hussar]

Not really - just a good generic mix of units.  What would we be looking at?

For context, the more shotte a unit has, the more ammo, but the worse in hand to hand.

Just had a quick count unpainted - I have 82 loading, 77 firing, BUT looked at the mixed 'shotte heavy' bases, and realised all 5 are firing, though a 3/2  split could be done.

So - that is 15 bases of musket. I could do 10 bases (=50 firing), and then 5-6 bases of mixed. (I'd be tempted to singly base the other 'loading' to use as the ammo markers, the excess loaders aren't a problem).

Painted I have 15 units (each or 2 shotte & 1 Pike), so with those 10 bases that would give me 20, 8 of which can be 'shotte heavy'

20 'Standard' battalia is easily enough for two armies with 10 each - a average game is 6-8 each. Of those 20 I can make a total 8 'shotte heavy'.

As noted above I am painting slightly more than half red, to allow the NMA, plus a couple for the royalists.

So
12 Red,
5 Blue,
3 Other colours

make it so I can convert
5 red
3 blue
to shot heavy?

Is this a reasonable proportion?

[Last Hussar]

The Scots and Irish can do one!

Not because I have anything against them, I'm not buying and painting more!

[pierre the shy]

When we were writing our "Rebellion and Retribution" scenario book for FK&P which covers the main battles in Ireland some of the later battles that I was designing involved NMA regiments that were shipped to Dublin so I have some experience of them.

By the later part of the 1st Civil War most Parliamentary units were moving towards "shot heavy" status with musket:pike ratio going from 2:1 to 3:1. We choose therefore to depict the NMA units involved as shot heavy in our scenario book.

Your ratio seem about right LH, not all NMA units had red coats. If you are after specifics for a unit the BCW regimental wiki is a good place to start.     

[Last Hussar]

Thank you All.

Final decision is

12 in red, 5 in blue, with a 5/3 ratio on the spare bases to convert to 'shotte heavy'.

[Last Hussar]

MORE!

I've found more figures, so can do more bases than first planned. Thinking about this, I'm wondering whether I should do specific bases for commanded shot (2 bases) and/or forlorn hope (1 base).

As mentioned above, musket are in a 3-2-3-2 formation,  5 firing,  5 loading/waiting. Should commanded shot or forlorn hope look different?

[mollinary]

Entirely up to you. What matters is that you can identify the different categories in the rules. My gut feeling  would be that forlorn hope would have fewer figures. Look at contemporary OOBs and see how many musketeers commanded shot represent. If it is is c500, and your average mixed battalion is 1500, then they should probably be a standard musket wing. Good luck!

[Last Hussar]

Cheers. However (I double checked to make sure) on table units sort of match  different unit sizes the rules give as guide lines - This is a sort of 'planned accident' by me, I think.

It gives a standard battalia as 400-600 men (I use 3 stands)
Commanded Shot at 250-350 (Mine is 2 stands)
Forlorn Hope as 150 to 200 (A single stand)

So this is about 150 to 200 men a stand.

I will see what I can find in historical OOBs. However it looks like I can just use what I have already, and don't have to worry about different formations.