Captured British 25pdr in German service

[Scarlett]

Hi,
I have purchased 2 of the new 25pdr in German service models.
My intention is to use them in my '90th Afrika Division',
which during Operation Crusader was a mostly static defence formation.
and which was the Cinderella unit of DAK.
It relied mostly on captured equipment.
Of course it doesn't yet appear in the army builder.
So I will have to use them with my opponents agreement.
I am thinking 2 would be right?
I am assuming they had all round firing capability,
as they were mounted on a circler firing platform?
I am interested to hear any comments or suggestions?
Phil

[Big Insect]

Hi Phil

Whilst the 25lbs were mounted on a turn table but Full Arc fire is not really a practical option (in reality, due to all sorts of factors). Plus the cost of Full Arc would make them an unattractive option verses other artillery that is available.
Like most on-table artillery you are looking at a 180% arc of fire for them.

I'm not an expert on the OOB of the formation you are using, but 2 seems fair enough.

Cheers
Mark

[Scarlett]

Thanks Dave.
The 25pdr seemed to be popular with the DAK.
From what I can gather, they had a number of batteries.
Although it was an old gun, it first saw action in the Boar war,
Duke Speedy tells me, it was undated pre WW2.
Phil

[Raider4]

Although it was an old gun, it first saw action in the Boar war,

Eh? Not sure about that. Always thought it was introduced pretty much at the start of WW2. It's predecessor - the 18pdr - might be that old.

[mollinary]

Eh? Not sure about that. Always thought it was introduced pretty much at the start of WW2. Its predecessor - the 18pdr - might be that old.

Absolutely. My understanding is that it was designed in the 1930s, and introduced c1939/40.

[Scarlett]

I think I got my wires crossed,
yes its the 18pdr that was old.
the 25pdr was built as a replacement for the 18pdr.
My apologies. Phil

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Ahh, that makes sense now Phil!
Yup, and upgraded with muzzle ends by midwar

[FierceKitty]

Isn't it time a few people learned what a boar is?

[Big Insect]

Boar - Bore - BAOR - Boer

All gets a bit complicated for us bears with very little brains

[sultanbev]

The 90th Light Division had 4x 25pdrs April-July 1942,
7 in August 1942 plus 7 in the Recce Battalion
8 in Sept 1942 plus 4 in the Recce Battalion
0 in Oct 1942 + 3 in the Recce Battalion
0 in Nov 1942

So, in BKC terms, 1 model in April to July 1942, 2 models August-Sept 1942 for off-table support.

See MicroMark Lists G460-G472

[Scarlett]

Thanks sultanbev.
Do you know how many the 15th and 21st divisions had,
just curious to know.
Did they use the 25pdr in the direct fire role?
I am assuming the recce battalion would have?
Phil

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Pleaeesay0 Pleasesay0 🙏

[Scarlett]

Duke,
I have done some online research,
and yes, they did use them in the direct fire role,
using plasma ammunition! 
So I can melt your tanks! 
Phil

[sultanbev]

Did they use the 25pdr in the direct fire role?
I am assuming the recce battalion would have?

Not on purpose, those 25pdrs were in the divisional artillery regiment. But in the desert, like the Soviet steppes, circumstances and ranges often allowed that everyone's divisional artillery ended up using direct fire whether they liked it or not.

Note that British 25pdrs had limited amounts of AP from about January 1942, perhaps up to 12 per gun from mid-1942, so it is not likely that the Germans would have many captured AP rounds.

The 25pdrs in the divisional recce battalion have much less signals infrastructure but I have them with an OP Team, so they were also used for indirect fire generally.

[sultanbev]

15th Panzer Division:
May 1942: 4x 25pdrs in recce battalion
June 1942: 4x 25prs in recce battalion; 3x 25pdr in divisional artillery regiment
July 1st-7th: 2x 25pdr in 115th Schutzen Reg; 2x 25pdr in recce battalion; 6 in divisional artillery regiment
July 20th-24th 1942: 2 or 4x 25pdr in 115th Schutzen Reg; 2x 25pdr in recce bttn; 6x 25pdr in div arty reg

21st Panzer Division I haven't done in that detail yet, but it was probably similar.

[Big Insect]

So it sounds like a single base of captured 25lbs, with restricted ammo, and a standard 180 degree arc, only hiring HE (no Smoke or Illumination) would be a possibility. 

[Scarlett]

Yeah, It looks that way Dave.
May be 6 AT rounds?
Many Thanks sultanbev.
That's very interesting.
North Africa and DAK is a new period to me.
I enjoy find out a new period as much as playing it.
Anyone wishing to enlighten me further on the subject,
please feel free.
And Speedy I did a check already,
and British tanks didn't add Chobham armour 

[fred.]

Yup, and upgraded with muzzle ends by midwar

It's that level of technical detail that we come for 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

It's that level of technical detail that we come for 

Half remembered facts during a work shift.
From Wikipedia
'The Mark II, fitted to the Mark I carriage, was the standard gun during the war...
...In 1942, a muzzle brake was fitted to the gun to eliminate the instability caused when firing the 20 lb AP shell with Charge Super at direct fire low elevation angles. To preserve the gun's balance on the trunnions, a counterbalance weight was also fitted, just in front of the breech ring. The designation of the modified gun was not changed. Eventually, all guns serving in Europe were so converted.'

[fred.]

Sorry Will - just teasing!

But 10 bonus points for the word trunnions!

But yes the muzzle brake (aka 'muzzle ends') is a key visual difference between the early war and mid to late war 25pdrs.