Artillery

[Scarlett]

Hi,
I played an encounter game last night,
my opponent used off table artillery,
with a FAO on table.
It says on page 63, Scenario 1 - encounter,
'Assets; No artillery or air assets are available'.
Am I missing something or is that illegal?
Phil

[Big Insect]

Illegal ... most definitely 
So it looks like you won that one 

[Scarlett]

Thanks Big insect,
I will let simmo know he is to go to the naughty step,
and think about is wrong doing for 5 minutes. 
Phil

[simmo]

That's strange because Big Insect includes artillery in both of his below encounter list. I'm assuming these are off table as both French and Germans have a FAO

https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18583.msg278637.html#msg278637

[Ithoriel]

Any group I've played with has agreed that army lists and scenario details are suggestions not holy writ. Changing bits and pieces, with your opponents agreement, can be a great way to keep things fresh. 

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Ahh, now I know who Simmo is too! 

[Kiwidave]

Hi,
I played an encounter game last night,
my opponent used off table artillery,
with a FAO on table.
It says on page 63, Scenario 1 - encounter,
'Assets; No artillery or air assets are available'.
Am I missing something or is that illegal?
Phil

I though assets were for used for scheduled (pre-planned) artillery/air strikes? Having an FAO and off-board artillery for requested strikes is OK for encounter games?

[Big Insect]

I though assets were for used for scheduled (pre-planned) artillery/air strikes? Having an FAO and off-board artillery for requested strikes is OK for encounter games?

Unless the Scenario specifically states not.

There is a difference between an 'Encounter' game e.g. when 2 forces meet and both move on-table using mobile deployment, and an 'Encounter' scenario where the scenario rules state no Off-table Artillery or Air assets.

[simmo]

>I though assets were for used for scheduled (pre-planned) artillery/air strikes? Having an FAO and off-board artillery for requested strikes is OK for encounter games?

Yes I always thought that. A mobile battle group most likely would have a Forward artillery observer to call in artillery but unlikely to have 'Assets' where an artillery strike is pre-planned.

[Big Insect]

>I though assets were for used for scheduled (pre-planned) artillery/air strikes? Having an FAO and off-board artillery for requested strikes is OK for encounter games?

Yes I always thought that. A mobile battle group most likely would have a Forward artillery observer to call in artillery but unlikely to have 'Assets' where an artillery strike is pre-planned.

In a traditional 'encounter' game e.g. not a scenario that specifically excludes off-table artillery or air assets, then having an FAO(s)/FAC(s) and as much off-table assets as you want to buy (from within your list) is all part of the game.
However, where you are playing the scenarios at the back of the rules book you need to follow the restrictions in the specific scenario. If that scenario says no off-table artillery or air, that includes all scheduled activity as well as actual units or munitions.

Assets (ammunition types) specified in the table at the end of the army lists also apply to units on-table as well.
1. if you want any units to fire a specific ammunition type (other than HE - which is deemed to be included as standard in a units cost) you are:
a). restricted to what is available in your list (so if you have units that can fire Smoke you need to buy Smoke as an asset ammunition type and allocate it to specific units)
b). restricted to the number of rounds specified in your list (if you list says 3 Smoke @ 20pts you need to purchase that capability at 20pts per unit or per scheduled attack - so buying all 3 costs 60pts)
c). Once a unit with an ammunition asset type allocated to it is KO'd, or a preliminary bombardment has been fired using that ammo type, the ammo is deemed to be spent.

2. Off-table units (heavy artillery and heavy mortars, Naval guns, air units GA or BM and air strikes) all also need to purchase munition types to use them. So if a Heavy Mortar is listed as being able to fire Munitions: HE, Smoke, Illumination - it gets HE as standard but must buy Smoke &/or Illumination ammo costed on a per-unit basis.

All of this is a game-play mechanism, designed to stop abuses of these ammo types.
Obviously if you are using OOBs or have a campaign type game it's up to you to agree with your opponent(s) how much of a certain asset type you can use in a particular game.

In BKC this is all of less importance from a game-balance perspective as most lists are restricted to either HE, Smoke or Illumination (only very rarely Chemical/Gas or Phosphorous/Napalm). So it's much less of an issue. Although a player continually dropping endless repeated Smoke barrages as they advance across the table produces an exceptionally dull game!

In CWC where we have things like FASCAM, Thermobaric etc. it becomes a much more critical issue and the same applies with FWC (where EMPs and Plasma etc. add extra complexity).

But as I say - all artillery (including mortars) both on and off-table have HE built into their cost as standard. Likewise preliminary bombardments or airstrikes must be purchased (as assets) and have HE built into them, as standard.

Hope all that helps
Cheers
Mark

[Scarlett]

Thanks Dave, for the very detailed reply.
Simmo and I have played many games over the years.
He is a honourable player, and doesn't do any naughty rule bending.
So I was merely pointing out that in my opinion this time,
he had been a little naughty. 
We have just started playing Blitzkrieg commander,
so simple encounter games are a good way to learn the basic rules.
Artillery and air support, in all it forms have yet to be addressed.
Although, I am sure Duke speedy will be giving me a lesson this week. 
I hope in the future to play more complex scenario's,
which will include all my newly painted Pendraken figures and models.
I would also like to try multi scenario games,
with both on table commands, and commands arriving.
Thanks to all for comments and suggestions.
Phil
 

[Big Insect]

Thanks Dave, for the very detailed reply.
Simmo and I have played many games over the years.
He is a honourable player, and doesn't do and naughty rule bending.
So I was merely pointing out that in my opinion this time,
he had been a little naughty. 
We have just started playing Blitzkrieg commander,
so simple encounter games are a good way to learn the basic rules.
Artillery and air support, in all it forms have yet to be addressed.
Although, I am sure Duke speedy will be giving me a lesson this week. 
I hope in the future to play more complex scenario's,
which will include all my newly painted Pendraken figures and models.
I would also like to try multi scenario games,
with both on table commands, and commands arriving.
Thanks to all for comments and suggestions.
Phil

Hi Phil

Even a lot of experienced players get some of the core rules mechanism wrong or apply them incorrectly.
Things like how 'Initiative' works and when to apply it are common mistakes - especially around Initiative driven assaults for example. Or Recce units using Initiative actions to move and not get shot at.

This is because the rules have been around for nearly 20+ years and whilst we are on V.4 most of the changes have really actually been very cosmetic. You'd think that this would mean that longstanding players would get things right, but what it tends to mean is that errors can easily get compounded and become the 'standard' way a club or group of local players interprets a specific rule.

Also, in some of the early editions there were items that were just assumed to work a certain way, but as the game developed it became clear that players needed more certainty around these. Off-table assets and different ammunition are both a case in point. For a long time in the club I used to play at we all assumed that if an on-table artillery unit had HE, Smoke and/or Illumination in its ammo list, that these were all automatically included in its points cost. Which would have been fine, had it not been for the demand by players to add in things like Phosphorous or Napalm etc. etc. etc. Then it became a 'house rule' that you needed to buy the additional ammo types, and that's when things got complicated. But once players got used to it, and saw the value of it not only from a game-play balance perspective but also to avoid points cost (for example why pay the points to arm your Super Étendard planes with Exocet anti-shipping missiles when the game was set far away from the sea etc.) it worked out fine.

In a basic game (not a scenario driven game) all the main rules apply - so if it's in your list you can use it.

Games where you have some formations on-table and others arriving (or not!) can be great fun. Remember that in some instances the army lists might restrict or handicap a formation looking to make a flank arrival. It's usually in the Special Rules associated with that list.

Have  fun
Mark