ATGW Targets

[Superscribe]

Hi

In the rules it states that ATGW cannot fire at infantry but can fire at buildings and fortifications, as well as vehicles.

Fortifications include trenches and gun pits, which are occupied by infantry and infatry support weapons. Plainly if ATGW have armoured targets they should fire at those, but can you please clarify that ATGW such as Milan and Soviet AT-4/5 can target infantry or infantry support weapons that are entrenched or in gun pits, and using their AT stats.

Rgds
Chris

[Big Insect]

Morning Chris

Short Answer:
No 

Long Answer:
Milan's (& similar ATGWs) were used in Bunker Buster roles, specifically in the Falklands War (were 10 were fired & 9 hit home - either by British infantry ATGW teams or from helicopters - to take out Argentine Machine Gun Nests, Command posts and Bunkers). TOW were also (apparently) used by Coalition Forces in the Gulf Wars against Iraqi fortified concrete bunkers.
This was an improvised use of the Milan, in the Falklands - because at a (1984) reported cost of approximately £7,500 per missile (equivalent to roughly £22,000–£25,000 in today's money) it was an expensive use of the weapon. But as the British troops had taken them with them to the South Atlantic, and Argentine armour was distinctly lacking, it was deemed an appropriate and innovative use of the weapon.

The intention in the rules is that in this instance - Fortification means 'Hard Fortifications' - so primarily Bunkers and Command Posts (which can be targeted).
Trenches, weapon pits or scrapes are technically Field Defenses - a minor but important difference in this instance.
However, and there is always a 'however' ... its up to players whether they want to use them in this manner as it is a hypothetical scenario we are talking about in Cold War (for the most part). They will, of course only Suppress any infantry inside, although they can damage (potentially KO) the Bunker or Command Post.
NB: I think Soviet Forces are probably even less likely to use their ATGWs in this manner - although there are unsubstantiated reports of Russian troops using ATGWs against large buildings being used as defensive points in both Georgia and Ukraine.

The intention of the rules is that it is Bunkers and Command Posts primarily that can be targeted. Dug-outs get complicated as they are (by their very nature) usually underground making targeting and hitting them a challenge.

Hope that is helpful
Cheers
Mark

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Morning Chris

Short Answer:
No 

Long Answer:
Milan's (& similar ATGWs) were used in Bunker Buster roles, specifically in the Falklands War (were 10 were fired & 9 hit home - either by British infantry ATGW teams or from helicopters - to take out Argentine Machine Gun Nests, C

Mark no helicopters use Milan, in the Falklands AAC  helis carried SS11 (Scout) or TOW (Lynx). Wessi had SS11 (sank a sub with one).

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

You'll also note that we put in a MASSIVE order for replacement Milans shortly after the Falklands!

[Big Insect]

Mark no helicopters use Milan, in the Falklands AAC  helis carried SS11 (Scout) or TOW (Lynx). Wessi had SS11 (sank a sub with one).

It was probably Lynx fired TOW then.
But my point still stands.

[Superscribe]

Thanks Mark. No firing ATGW at field defences.
Redgards
Chris

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Thanks Mark. No firing ATGW at field defences.
Redgards
Chris

But where's the fun in that!

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Think its wrong - George McDonlad Fraser (Flashman) was an infantryman in Burma and used a PIat to destroy a bunker and sink a boat. OK mark no an ATGW but same type of warhead. So not trenchs but bunkers and vehicles soft or armoured.

[Superscribe]

To clarify my understanding, no ATGW fire at trenches and gun pits (field defences) but can shoot at bunkers and other solid fortifications.

[Big Insect]

Think its wrong - George McDonlad Fraser (Flashman) was an infantryman in Burma and used a PIat to destroy a bunker and sink a boat. OK mark no an ATGW but same type of warhead. So not trenchs but bunkers and vehicles soft or armoured.

What do you exactly thing is 'wrong' Ian?
I am stating that you can fire a bunkers and soft/armoured vehicles (& even boats) - just not holes in the ground 

[Big Insect]

To clarify my understanding, no ATGW fire at trenches and gun pits (field defences) but can shoot at bunkers and other solid fortifications.

Correct - need to be 'solid' - so holes in the ground cannot be targeted (no trenches, gun pits, scrapes)

[Superscribe]