Recce questions

[Fabterp2003]

Hi,
Yesterday I tried the recce rules as main rule book.
The situation was as follow:
An infantry company and a small AT gun were concealed and gone to ground in a village.  In the first command phase a recce unit moved and got closed to the village. In the second turn in the initiative phase the recce attempted to spot the units in the village.
Firstly, I positioned the recce template over the village, the distance between the recce unit and the center of the template was 18cm. Therefore, to succeed I needs roll of 2+. The reconnoitre action was successful.
The second step was spotting the concealed units, that was tricky.
The nearest unit was an infantry one, that was in hard cover, gone to ground and the recce unit was at 16cm from it. The modifiers for the spotting action were as follows:
-1 for distance to target, 16cm
+1 gone to ground
+1 infantry as target
The unit was in hard cover with a basic score of 6 but was modified to 7, no spotting was possible. Am I correct?
It looks like a gone to ground infantry unit in a build up area can not be spotted at ANY distance with a reconnoitre action.
However, at page 14 "Concealed Troops" is written that concealed troops can only be seen when an enemy troop moves within 5 cm of concealed troops with low profile as  gone to ground troops are.
Therefore, to see such troops in the build up area I need to move the recce unit at minimum 5 cm from the concealed unit that will lose its concealed status.
Here are the questions:
A. Is this a proper RECCE action?
B. The enemy unit that has lost the concealed status is visible to all or is needed a spotting action in the next initiative phase?
C.If another spotting action is necessary what is the procedure? Area template and then spotting action?
D. Which are the modifiers we have to use for the spotting action? Be aware that the distance modifier is -1 from 0 to 20cm and we are still with a +7 to spot an infantry gone to ground in hard cover.

Best regards,
Fabio

[Big Insect]

Hi,
Yesterday I tried the recce rules as main rule book.
The situation was as follow:
An infantry company and a small AT gun were concealed and gone to ground in a village.  In the first command phase a recce unit moved and got closed to the village. In the second turn in the initiative phase the recce attempted to spot the units in the village.
Firstly, I positioned the recce template over the village, the distance between the recce unit and the center of the template was 18cm. Therefore, to succeed I needs roll of 2+. The reconnoitre action was successful.
The second step was spotting the concealed units, that was tricky.
The nearest unit was an infantry one, that was in hard cover, gone to ground and the recce unit was at 16cm from it. The modifiers for the spotting action were as follows:
-1 for distance to target, 16cm
+1 gone to ground
+1 infantry as target
The unit was in hard cover with a basic score of 6 but was modified to 7, no spotting was possible. Am I correct?
It looks like a gone to ground infantry unit in a build up area can not be spotted at ANY distance with a reconnoitre action.
However, at page 14 "Concealed Troops" is written that concealed troops can only be seen when an enemy troop moves within 5 cm of concealed troops with low profile as  gone to ground troops are.
Therefore, to see such troops in the build up area I need to move the recce unit at minimum 5 cm from the concealed unit that will lose its concealed status.
Here are the questions:
A. Is this a proper RECCE action?
B. The enemy unit that has lost the concealed status is visible to all or is needed a spotting action in the next initiative phase?
C.If another spotting action is necessary what is the procedure? Area template and then spotting action?
D. Which are the modifiers we have to use for the spotting action? Be aware that the distance modifier is -1 from 0 to 20cm and we are still with a +7 to spot an infantry gone to ground in hard cover.

Best regards,
Fabio

Hi Fabio
I'm replying immediately, so I dont lose the 'thread' so to speak. As I dont have my rules book with me, so will reply when I do.
However, always remember that targets with a score greater than a 6 cannot be spotted.
I'll do a more detailed response, once I have my rules book in front of me.
Cheers
Mark 

[Big Insect]

Hi Fabio
OK ... rules book at my side 

Firstly - you appear to be playing Recce slightly incorrectly.
Recce units are not Commanded - they are Independent units that can undertake 1 action in a turn.
They do not need a Command roll to undertake this action, and it can be carried out either as an Initiative Action or as a Commanded Action.
So in your scenario below, if your Recce has moved into position in this Game Turn - that is the only action it can undertake that Game Turn. NB: if it moves as  an Initiative Action, it cannot be targeted by enemy Opportunity Fire (which is worth remembering).

But if we assume that the Recce unit had moved to its position 18cm from the center of the village in the previous Game turn, you will work out the Spotting action as you describe, and you have done so correctly.
So at that range, on a score of 7, the Recce unit cannot spot the Infantry.
The way to think about this is that the Infantry are not moving, and hidden in deep cover - think about the film 'Saving Private Ryan' where the US infantry are almost on-top of the Germans in the town in Northern France, when the wall collapses! Or in the film 'Fury' as the Sherman tanks and supporting infantry advance into the village in Germany and are ambushed by the SMG nest in the cellar and PaK40 in the shop. You'll need to be right on top of Low Profile units or Infantry, that are gone-to-ground and not firing or moving in a BUA, before you see them.
This is reflected by the fact that the Gone-to-Ground rules (P14 Concealed Troops) states that you'll need to be within 5cm of such units within a BUA. So you are correct in all those aspects.

With regards to your specific questions
A. Using your Recce unit to advance into the BUA to within 5cm of the Gone-to-Ground Infantry is a perfectly acceptable Recce Movement action.
B. Correct - the enemy unit that has lost the concealed status is visible to all (within LoS - so 5cm) so it will need a Recce communication action in the next initiative phase to communicate its position more widely.
C. You will need to roll again to achieve a successful Communication action (top of page 31) with the nearest friendly Command unit (CO, HQ, FAO, FAC).
D. You use the same modifiers - but this time the Infantry unit is no longer Gone-to-Ground as that has been removed. So a score of 6 is still required.

This may all seem very difficult and that is deliberate - clearing a BUA of well dug-in infantry is a tough job.
I'd suggesting it might be better just sending in a bunch of infantry units (maybe with your Recce Scouts) to conduct 'reconnaissance in-force'! The Recce Support Unit rules on page 34 might also be helpful as an alternative way of operating.

Hope that is helpful?
Cheers
Mark
 




your scenario as follows:
Page 31/32 Reconnoitre - using the table on Page 31 - the Recce unit is trying to spot the concealed Infantry unit, within the village as it is the nearest unit to it.

[Fabterp2003]

Hi Mark,
I agree with all answers but the D..
Reading "Concealed troops", it says once an enemy troops gets closer than 5cm to a low profile concealed troop, as a gone to ground infantry unit, it can be seen by troops within 5cm with LOS on it. As far as I understand, the knowledge of the concealed troop stays with the recce unit that discovers it until a communication action will be performed in the next initiative phase.
The action performed by the Recce unit removes the concealed status of the unit in the BUA and only to the Recce companions that are within 5cm to the concealed unit and with LOS to it, but it does not remove the GONE TO GROUND status.
To make a successful communication, I need to roll again and let's check the modifiers:
Hard cover 6
Target unit infantry +1
Distance 16cm  -1
Target unit is GONE TO GROUND +1 
Again we have a 7+ roll to successful communication to the nearest CO, HQ or FO.
The GONE-TO-GROUND paragraph says that a unit looses its gone to ground status when it moves, nothing about loosing the status due to be observed by an enemy unit.
Am I missing something?

Best regards,
Fabio

[Big Insect]

Hi Fabio - please see my comment in-line in-bold below.

Hi Mark,
I agree with all answers but the D..
Reading "Concealed troops", it says once an enemy troops gets closer than 5cm to a low profile concealed troop, as a gone to ground infantry unit, it can be seen by troops within 5cm with LOS on it. As far as I understand, the knowledge of the concealed troop stays with the recce unit that discovers it until a communication action will be performed in the next initiative phase.
The action performed by the Recce unit removes the concealed status of the unit in the BUA and only to the Recce companions that are within 5cm to the concealed unit and with LOS to it, but it does not remove the GONE TO GROUND status.
To make a successful communication, I need to roll again and let's check the modifiers:
Hard cover 6
Target unit infantry +1
Distance 16cm  -1
Target unit is GONE TO GROUND +1 
(> No -  - the Gone-to-Ground factor no longer exists for visibility purposes, as the Recce unit is at/or within 5cm of the target. As Page 14 states that the G2G unit can be seen at 5cm - and so for visibility G2G no longer applies - to the Recce unit or any other units within 5cm of the enemy).
Again we have a 7+ roll to successful communication to the nearest CO, HQ or FO.

The GONE-TO-GROUND paragraph says that a unit looses its gone to ground status when it moves, nothing about loosing the status due to be observed by an enemy unit.
(>please see the second bullet-point from bottom of the page on page 14)
Am I missing something?

Best regards,
Fabio

Cheers
Mark

[Fabterp2003]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your answer.
I was missing the removal of G2G status of the concealed unit when the recce unit goes close to observe.

I got another question.
A Recce unit getting closer to the build up area removes more  than one concealed status to enemy infantry units. What will happen in my next turn?
I would play as follow:
 In the Initiative phase the Recce unit could try to communicate to CO/HQ/FAC the position of the nearest enemy unit. If successful  CO/HQ can target that unit only with on table mortar/IG fire, while the FO could try to hit that unit with a off-table artillery fire.
During the Command phase, the HQ could issue an order to move forward his troops till these ones  will reach the distance where they could see the enemy units that had lost the concealed status due to the Recce action in the previous turn. The visibility should be 10cm because these are no more concealed (no G2G anymore) and been infantry they have Average profile.  Now the HQ can order to fire on these units in the BUA, do these units have the -1d6 as they still have the G2G status referred to the shooting?

Best regards,
Fabio

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark,
Thanks for your answer.
I was missing the removal of G2G status of the concealed unit when the recce unit goes close to observe.

I got another question.
A Recce unit getting closer to the build up area removes more  than one concealed status to enemy infantry units.
(> It can only remove the G2G status of the nearest unit - so to discover more units it will need to move again)
What will happen in my next turn?
I would play as follow:
In the Initiative phase the Recce unit could try to communicate to CO/HQ/FAC the position of the nearest enemy unit. If successful  CO/HQ can target that unit only with on table mortar/IG fire (correct), while the FO could try to hit that unit with off-table artillery fire (correct - making sure you use a concentration, so as not to subject your Recce unit to friendly fire  NB: remember it is the FAO ordering the guns, so any deviation distance is measured from the FAO to the target unit. With on-table Mortars/IGs there is no deviation).

During the Command phase, the HQ could issue an order to move forward his troops till these ones will reach the distance where they could see the enemy units that had lost the concealed status due to the Recce action in the previous turn. (the mortars and/or IGs don't need a LoS to the enemy - so as long as they are within range & LoF they can target the enemy - this just needs a successful command roll. It is not quite the same for the FAO, as the Recce unit has, in effect, just made the target 'visible' to the FAO, but it is the FAO that is directing the shooting. Other units - such as an AFV or INF:LI or INF:SI for example would need an order to move forward to within 10cm as the location of the enemy infantry is now known.)

The visibility should be 10cm because these are no more concealed (no G2G anymore) (correct) and been infantry they have Average profile.  Now the HQ can order to fire on these units in the BUA, do these units have the -1d6 as they still have the G2G status referred to the shooting? (No - G2G is primarily a visibility thing, and the Recce has, in effect, made them visible, but they are still in cover in the BUA so will only be hit on a 6 (Pages 38/54)

Best regards,
Fabio

The way to think about this is that the Recce unit spots the enemy unit in the BUA, it has radioed the position to the nearest command unit (an HQ or an FAO) and these command units are now directing fire down upon that unit/location.
Neither the on-table mortars/IGs or off-table artillery need LoS to hit that target, so as long as the mortars/IGs are in range and have LoF they can now hit the location of those infantry. The off-table artillery isn't affected by LoF or range - it just need the location. But all these units will need to receive a successful order to fire.

I have often played it that I have a small formation, consisting of a Recce unit, an FAO and a few units of supporting INF:LI with an HQ when trying to deal with an enemy invested BUA. Making sure that the BUA is within range of my large Mortars and IGs on-table. Having the Mortars/IGs as Independent units, which means that they are not subject to any command distance range modifiers (between them and their commanding HQ). As in real life large mortars on-table (or IGs) are a really effective way of targeting specific enemy units - as there is no deviation.
Cheers
Mark 

[Fabterp2003]

HI Mark,
now the recce process es is clearer!
I have 2 more questions, hopefully the last ones!!!
The scenario is always the same one: an infantry company concealed and G2G in a Build up area.
The recce unit moves forward to spot the concealed unit, as it closes the BUA, it spots spots all three infantry units as they all are within 5cm from the recce unit. What will happen?
A. All infantry units will loose the concealed and G2G status;
B. Only the the closest infantry unit loose the concealed and G2G status;
C. If A. is the answer the Recce unit will comunicate to the CO/HQ/FO the position of the closest unit to the Recce one.

The second one is referred to the modifier table:
+1  Target is Infantry or Infantry Support or Low Profile in the Open
Does it mean that a Low profile AT gun in Low or High ground does not get this modifier?

Best regards,
Fabio

[Big Insect]

HI Mark,
now the recce process es is clearer!
I have 2 more questions, hopefully the last ones!!!
The scenario is always the same one: an infantry company concealed and G2G in a Build up area.
The recce unit moves forward to spot the concealed unit, as it closes the BUA, it spots spots all three infantry units as they all are within 5cm from the recce unit. What will happen?
A. All infantry units will loose the concealed and G2G status; (Yes, if all units are exactly within 5cm of the Recce unit & all are also equidistant from the Recce unit - so it helps not to have those infantry too bunched up or equally spaced  )
B. Only the the closest infantry unit loose the concealed and G2G status; (No - see A above)
C. If A. is the answer the Recce unit will communicate to the CO/HQ/FO the position of the closest unit to the Recce one (If they are all equidistant, the Recce unit has a choice, but it can only choose to communicate one unit per action. So next game turn, it can drop the initial unit as a target and move to another of the units, if you choose).

The second one is referred to the modifier table:
+1  Target is Infantry or Infantry Support or Low Profile in the Open
Does it mean that a Low profile AT gun in Low or High ground does not get this modifier?
(Yes - as the terrain modifier overrides this)

Best regards,
Fabio

NB: it is a deliberate rules mechanism that means that the Recce unit can only remove the G2G status of the nearest enemy unit. But if you can position the Recce unit so that it is within 5cm of a number of enemy units and they are all equidistant from the Recce unit - then it is only fair that they reveal all such units.
But as they can only communicate once to the CO/HQ/FAO only one such unit can be directly targeted.

Cheers
Mark

[Fabterp2003]

Hi Mark,
Thanks again for your answers.
However more I play solo more questions are coming!
Q.1 if i'm Playing a flank deployment, can a Recce unit communicate with the HQ on the flank to help him to deploy?

Q.2 An infantry unit is targeted by direct fire while being deployed in a brick building and being G2G. What is the Safe modifier? -3d6 for being in a brick building and being G2G or only -2d6 for being in the building as the Building Safe modifier is greater then the G2G one.

Q.3 Always an infantry unit in a high area terrain. The unit after  a shooting exchange decides to withdraw inside the terrain without any LOS of enemy units on it.
When can it regain the concealed status? At the end of this move or next turn if it doesn't move or shoot? Is G2G considered a move?

Best regards,
Fabio 

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark,
Thanks again for your answers.
However more I play solo more questions are coming!
Q.1 if i'm Playing a flank deployment, can a Recce unit communicate with the HQ on the flank to help him to deploy?
> assuming the HQ is already on-table then Yes, but if off-table No

Q.2 An infantry unit is targeted by direct fire while being deployed in a brick building and being G2G. What is the Safe modifier? -3d6 for being in a brick building and being G2G or only -2d6 for being in the building as the Building Safe modifier is greater then the G2G one.

> Hmmm. Mixing G2G with the more granular building rules will probably lead to complications 
I'd just use the higher modifier or you'll end up with a situation where it is impossible to root-out the infantry.

Q.3 Always an infantry unit in a high area terrain. The unit after  a shooting exchange decides to withdraw inside the terrain without any LOS of enemy units on it.
When can it regain the concealed status? (>Yes, see below)
At the end of this move or next turn if it doesn't move or shoot? Is G2G considered a move?
> in this situation G2G is an action - so required a successful command roll to happen.
Best regards,
Fabio

Hope that helps
Cheers
Mark