Response fire

[Christopher]

How many times Can a Unit response fire before a close combat? Can you Continue firing even after you have been contacted be the enemy? In the example in the rulebook the mujahideen Unit fires at both assaulting Sovjet Unit. But could it have fires twice if it had beenassaulted first?

Cheers

[Big Insect]

You can only fire if you are not in combat.
But you can fire as many times as is required up to that point.
Cheers
Mark

[Christopher]

So if we continue with the excample from the rulebook it would make bette sence to charge the unsuppressed Unit first?

[Big Insect]

So if we continue with the example from the rulebook it would make better sense to charge the unsuppressed Unit first?

Absolutely - yes - but in an assault the carful selection of which unit charges which is critical, as a unit with hits on it already (but with no suppression) might (if shot at) be knocked-out providing space or LoS for other units to provide more support. The 'bloody' nature of the Commander assault mechanisms, where the melee continues pretty much until units are destroyed means that setting up your assaults is critical.

[Christopher]

Thanks

[dylan]

You can only fire if you are not in combat.
But you can fire as many times as is required up to that point.
Cheers
Mark

I fear I may have been playing it wrong!

Just to be clear - each defending unit within ten cm of the target of an assault, as well as the target unit, may fire ONCE at each enemy unit coming into the assault, and ONCE at each supporting unit the attacker has declared? (assuming clear LOS)
Does this even apply to defender units within 10cm that are declared as supporting the target unit under assault? They can also shoot as many times as are available and then subsequently add their support as well?

[Big Insect]

I fear I may have been playing it wrong!

Just to be clear - each defending unit within ten cm of the target of an assault, as well as the target unit, may fire ONCE at each enemy unit coming into the assault, and ONCE at each supporting unit the attacker has declared? (assuming clear LOS)
Yes - in a Commanded Assault -see below
Does this even apply to defender units within 10cm that are declared as supporting the target unit under assault? They can also shoot as many times as are available and then subsequently add their support as well?
> I am not sure I understand the question - but see below.

There is a difference between an assault in the Initiative Phase and one in the Command Phase.

Initiative Phase
Page 21 CWCII*- Response Fire:
The unit being assaulted and any unsuppressed supporting units within LoS and 10cm may fire once at the assaulting unit (e.g. supporting units cannot shoot at each other - as it is all deemed to be happening at very close range and quickly, and the assaulting unit is their target priority).

Close Assault
Page 43 CWCII*- Shooting During an Assault:
"Units under assault, and any unsuppressed units within 10cm of a unit under assault, may open fire at assaulting and supporting units".
As this is an assault in the Command phase, it can occur over a number of turns (see example on Pages 47-48).

However, the supporting unit may fire at more than one assaulting unit in a turn (unlike in an assault in the Initiative Phase).

For example: the defending Soviet player has 2 INF:LI conscript units and an INF:SI HMG in support, back between the 2 conscript units. The Soviet HMG is unsuppressed and within LoS and within 10cm of both the Conscript units.
The attacking West German Bundeswehr player is assaulting with 2 regular infantry (INF:LI) and has an HMG is support, the HMG is unsuppressed and just within 10cm of the Soviet conscripts.
The German player orders both of the INF:LI units to assault the Soviet conscripts.
The German HMG can support both assaults, but does so as a single Commanded action.
The Soviet conscripts will each open fire on their respective German INF:LI assaulting them, but each will be supported by the Soviet HMG (so that in effect fires twice). Neither HMG can fire at each other as both are outside 10cm of each other. Had they been within LoS & 10cm of each other they could also fire at each other (in effect firing 3 times), as long as they were within LoS of each other and within 10cm of each other. 

*I make a point that this is CWCII as the example that Christopher quotes at the start of this thread is from CWCI (e.g. a Soviet v Mujahedeen example). He is also asking about 'Response Fire' which only occurs in the Initiative Phase.
NB: we are aware of the errata on Page 47 (CWCII) that mentions 'response fire' in the example - as this is a Commanded assault, it should read 'support fire'.

And to be clear - no unit continues to fire - under any circumstances - once it is actually in close assault/combat. However, firing in an assault can occur at the point that two units engage in assault, ahead of the actual combat (e.g. at point blank range - but remember any supporting units must still have LoS at that point to be able to fire).
Cheers
Mark
NB: as all firing in an assault, in effect, takes place simultaneously it is not possible for 1 Support unit to fire at another enemy Support unit and suppress it ahead of it being able to fire back in support. All units that are declared as Support units - even if they cannot fire - can be targeted by enemy Support units if they are within LoS and 10cm of the firing unit.

[Big Insect]

Does this even apply to defender units within 10cm that are declared as supporting the target unit under assault? They can also shoot as many times as are available and then subsequently add their support as well?

I've reread your question and the answer is NO.
A Support unit that is targeted for assault by an enemy unit is no longer a Support unit - it automatically becomes the primary target unit in the assault - so cannot now support others, as it is focused on its own survival.
I hope that answers you OK?
Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

I've reread your question and the answer is NO.
A Support unit that is targeted for assault by an enemy unit is no longer a Support unit - it automatically becomes the primary target unit in the assault - so cannot now support others, as it is focused on its own survival.
I hope that answers you OK?
Cheers
Mark

That's helpful clarification but actually wasn't what I was checking - I just wanted to be sure that if I declare I'm supporting a defending unit I can still also engage in fire prior to the assault, and vice versa.  I think the answer is yes during a commanded assault, but wanted to be sure.

[Big Insect]

That's helpful clarification but actually wasn't what I was checking - I just wanted to be sure that if I declare I'm supporting a defending unit I can still also engage in fire prior to the assault, and vice versa.  I think the answer is yes during a commanded assault, but wanted to be sure.

When you mean "engage in fire prior to the assault" - I am not sure what fire that might be?
You can Opportunity Fire ahead of the assault e.g. earlier in that turn at other enemy units not engaged in the assault - as the supporting unit will belong to the inactive player. But you cannot Opportunity Fire as part of an assault. That firing is part of the assault.
Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

When you mean "engage in fire prior to the assault" - I am not sure what fire that might be?
You can Opportunity Fire ahead of the assault e.g. earlier in that turn at other enemy units not engaged in the assault - as the supporting unit will belong to the inactive player. But you cannot Opportunity Fire as part of an assault. That firing is part of the assault.
Cheers
Mark

Yes, technically I should have said "shooting during an assault by supporting units".
So, if I declare some supporting units as defender, I can shoot with them at assaulting and supporting units during the assault move, and then also they add their support to the defending unit in the close assault resolution?
But do I also have the choice to shoot during the assault move but not be a supporting unit for the purposes of the close assault resolution? (I note the text on page 43 does not term units firing as "supporting" it just says the requirement to fire is that you're within 10cm and LOS).

Sorry, as you can tell, I find assault a bit confusing, but I'm determined to play it right.

[Big Insect]

You cannot Opportunity Fire if you are the defending/inactive player in a assault as part of an enemy Initiative Action. NB: Initiative actions do not trigger Opportunity fire as they happen at close range and before any Commanded Actions.
So it is impossible for any defending units, other than those assaulted and in support within 10cm and LoS and unsuppressed to shoot at the assaulting unit. This is laid out on Page 21 - Response Fire (inactive Player).

Once the assaulting unit is engaged in combat with the unit it is assaulting, then any supporting units (attacker or defender) are contributing to the combat, so, firing no longer possible.
Firing is only possible once at those targets, but the defending Supporting units can at the same time fire at the enemy units that are supporting that assault (if they are within 10cm & LoS etc).
Once the defending (& attacking) supporting units are actively engaged in supporting the melee/combat they cannot shoot in support of any other units that are not yet being assaulted.

I think that answers your question.

NB: There are possible cases where it is possible for a defending supporting unit to fire in support of one assault - and if that enemy attacking unit is Knocked out before making contact, and they are within 10cm and LoS and still unsuppressed of a second friendly units involved in a separate assault, when they could potentially support this friendly unit being assaulted (& can then fire again) and then support in melee.

Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

You cannot Opportunity Fire if you are the defending/inactive player in a assault as part of an enemy Initiative Action. NB: Initiative actions do not trigger Opportunity fire as they happen at close range and before any Commanded Actions.
So it is impossible for any defending units, other than those assaulted and in support within 10cm and LoS and unsuppressed to shoot at the assaulting unit. This is laid out on Page 21 - Response Fire (inactive Player).

Once the assaulting unit is engaged in combat with the unit it is assaulting, then any supporting units (attacker or defender) are contributing to the combat, so, firing no longer possible.
Firing is only possible once at those targets, but the defending Supporting units can at the same time fire at the enemy units that are supporting that assault (if they are within 10cm & LoS etc).
Once the defending (& attacking) supporting units are actively engaged in supporting the melee/combat they cannot shoot in support of any other units that are not yet being assaulted.

I think that answers your question.

NB: There are possible cases where it is possible for a defending supporting unit to fire in support of one assault - and if that enemy attacking unit is Knocked out before making contact, and they are within 10cm and LoS and still unsuppressed of a second friendly units involved in a separate assault, when they could potentially support this friendly unit being assaulted (& can then fire again) and then support in melee.

Cheers
Mark

So in a commanded assault, my defenders can each fire once at the assaulting unit itself, AND once at each supporting unit the attacker has declared for that assault? (provided they are within 10cm of the unit under assault)

And then can I say that apart from the unit under assault, some or all the other defender units within 10cm are not supporting in the actual close assault? Or does the act of firing at the attacker as he comes in automatically mean I am counted as supporting for the actual assault combat?   (here I am thinking of examples where I have firing units that I do not want to be part of the assault so they are not affected by the outcome)

You use the phrase "fire in support" but I'm not clear whether this means I am counted as "supporting"? The rules on page 43 use the phrase "shooting during an assault" and this is clearly separated in the rules from "support" which has its own section immediately above. So does "shooting during an assault" = "support"?

[Big Insect]

I think it might be best to give me a much clearer and very specific example dylan, as now even I am getting confused 

A supporting unit that is firing in supporting a unit being assaulted or which is assaulting is "firing in support". No other units other than the participants of an assault and supporting units can fire.
So I am not sure what other firing you are thinking about?

The firing associated with an Initiative Action assault is very limited. However, if a unit that has fired in support (of a friendly unit being assaulted) during an Initiative Action survives the assault intact and unsuppressed, it is perfectly possible for it to then Opportunity Fire triggered by an enemy action in response to the enemies next Commanded Action (subject to all the requirements being met for opportunity fire to occur).

As commanded assaults occur at the end of the Command phase, an enemy unit that has fired in support of a unit defending in an assault cannot fire as Opportunity Fire (for example) that turn.

I am not sure if this answers your question, but as I say please can you provide a specific answer and I can try to answer more clearly.
Thanks
Mark

[dylan]

Good idea! :-)

Okay, let's say it is the Command Phase.  Attacking we have a Soviet MR infantry stand and an MG stand and a BTR60 stand.  The Soviet player makes his command roll and commences a close assault against a defending Bundeswehr infantry stand. The Soviet player indicates he will move his MR infantry stand into contact with the German infantry, the Soviet MG stand and the BTR60 stand will support the assault.

Within 10cm of the German infantry stand is a friendly Jeep-MG stand.

The German player says he will undertake "shooting during an assault" as per the rules on page 43. Am I correct that the German infantry stand and the Jeep-MG stand can each fire at the Soviet infantry stand, at the Soviet MG stand and at the Soviet BTR60 stand? And that all this firing occurs before the Soviet infantry stand gets into contact for the assault?

Let's say the German fire is ineffectual in this case.  I then move the Soviet infantry stand into contact with the German infantry stand?

At the end of the command phase we fight the close assault.  At this time, can the German player say the Jeep-MG is not going to support the German infantry stand in the assault?

Thanks for your patience!