AD Units

[Superscribe]

Hi

Manpads seem to have the same AA ability as vehicle/trailer-mounted SAM systems and can shoot at enemy aircraft multiple times per game turn (but against helicopters, only once per game turn).

Infantry IATW upgrades are limited to 1 shot per game turn; it is assumed that this is to represent a limited supply of reloads when compared to other weapon systems.  Why are Manpads (such as SAM-7 and Blowpipe) not restricted in a similar way? Blowpipe for example, cant have the same reload ability as Rapier so should it not be restricted in some way?

There is also the question: "Is AA fire Opportunity Fire?"
Most defensive AA fire is carried out during the enemy's scheduled phase or command phase. Other units that use Opportunity Fire can only fire once during the enemy turn, and then have to wait until the friendly command phase before they can fire again (CV -1). Primary AA weapons of any type can fire multiple times in the enemy turn. Why are they not restricted to fire only once during the enemy turn (as per Opportunity Fire rules) and then if ordered to fire in their own command phase (say against enemy on-table helicopters), should they not incur –1 on the CV for using Opportunity Fire?

We are looking for comments or suggestions about how best to play these systems as they impact markedly on our bigger games.

Regards
Chris

[Big Insect]

Where applicable most MANPADs should all appear in the Infantry Support sections of the lists.
This is being corrected in the 'Continuity Project'.
However, do feel free to treat them as such until the new lists are published. As such they will only get 1 shot per game turn.
However, do bear in mind that in some instances certain types of 'MANPAD' SAMs are also deployed on fixed multiple shot shooting frames/platforms, often towed, and with multiple reloads. These types/variants will appear in the specific AA sections in the lists and will therefore be classified as Dedicated and could have multiple shots per game turn.

In an Enemy game-turn all AA fire by the defender is classified as Opportunity fire. Therefore, all defender AA units can only fire once in an enemy turn regardless of whether they are Dedicated or not and the units that fire will collect an Opportunity fire penalty when firing in their own next turn. NB: I will double-check the wording in the rules, but that is the intention.

This encourages a defender to be 'considered' about which AA units they use to defend against enemy air attacks, as by using all your available AA units to attempt to see off the 1st enemy air attack, you will have none to defend against potential subsequent attacks.
However, you'll not know how many air attacks an enemy might make, so it is a gamble as to how many AA units you hold back (as it would be in real life). This represents the fact that in a game-turn whilst enemy aircraft are being ordered and deployed sequentially, in 'real-life' they may well be attacking simultaneously. Of course the attacker also doesn't know if their air attacks will happen, as that is dependent upon the success of their command rolls.

AA fire in an attackers turn is either from an Initiative action (if the target is within Initiative Distance) or Commanded Fire, and that is where the difference between Dedicated & not dedicated AA units really applies, as AA fire in an attackers game-turn can only be aimed at on-table enemy units e.g. recce aircraft, on table-air transport, helicopters, aircraft on the ground or ground AFVs/VEH (where applicable).
A non-dedicated MANPAD SAM can therefore only fire once, whilst the Dedicated units have multiple reloads or are direct fire units (such as a Gepard or ZSU-23-4) using radar guided auto-cannons, and can fire multiple times, but only in the attackers turn.

I hope that clarifies things?
Cheers
Mark

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark

Many thanks for the clarification which does help us understand this better

Rgds
Chris

[Andrew T]

Hi Mark

This would seem to contradict the rules as written. Page 64 states that dedicated AA units can fire at repeated off-table air attack targets in AA mode in the same game turn. HQ units with AA ability can only fire once and on-table aircraft can only be fired at once by each AA unit per turn.

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark

This would seem to contradict the rules as written. Page 64 states that dedicated AA units can fire at repeated off-table air attack targets in AA mode in the same game turn. HQ units with AA ability can only fire once and on-table aircraft can only be fired at once by each AA unit per turn.

Technically - yes Andrew, you are correct that in your own game-turn you can shoot at repeated off-table air-targets in AA mode, as many times as you like.
However, and here is the rub   
In your own game turn there will be no enemy off-table Air targets, as it is only your air-assets that can be used/fly off-table in your turn.

The wording needs to be 'cleaned-up' - as it is 'rogue' text that should have been removed in the final CWCI to CWCII editorial process. NB: previously there were no enemy on-table air-assets allowed in your turn in CWCI (e.g. no helicopters or aerial recce or possibly enemy AIR:TNS assets were on-table in a friendly game turn).

However, AAGs can choose to be fired at ground targets, in your game-turn and there is no restriction on the ways or numbers of times they can be Commanded to do so (providing you pass the appropriate Command roll and that there is no prohibition in the Notes column that stops them shooting at ground targets).

Hopefully that clears things up? It is in the Rules Errata which will be worked on once the 'Continuity Project' is completed. But the reality is its not really an issue as enemy off-table air never flies in you turn 

Cheers
Mark

[Andrew T]

Hi Mark

I still think though that this is contradictory to the rulebook and a change from 1st edition. The rulebook states that AA can fire multiple times during a game turn, not a player's turn. The examples given on page 64 also show AA units firing multiple times at different aircraft that have been called in separately.

The whole point of the Opportunity Fire mechanism (such as I understand it) is to avoid a common issue with IGO-UGO rules systems in that units cannot otherwise react to the actions of enemy units during the enemy turn. So troops could, for example, run across a street or from cover to cover with impunity. Opp Fire gives players the chance to use covering fire and avoid these unrealistic situations.

However, as you have pointed out, aircraft do not move during an opponent's turn so, unless there are on-table helicopters visible that they can blaze away at, AA units cannot fulfill their primary purpose during their own turn. They can only come into action during the opponent's turn. If a tank or infantry unit can fire multiple times during a player's turn then I cannot see any reason why a dedicated AA unit cannot fire multiple times during an opponent's turn, as that is what they are intended to do.

One other issue arises if AA fire is classed as opportunity fire. Opp Fire can only be used in the Command Phase. If a player has on-table helicopters then they can move or fire during the initiative phase and be invulnerable to AA.

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark

I still think though that this is contradictory to the rulebook and a change from 1st edition. The rulebook states that AA can fire multiple times during a game turn, not a player's turn. The examples given on page 64 also show AA units firing multiple times at different aircraft that have been called in separately.

> I agree that the example on P64 is contradictory - it needs correcting. Playtesting and the addition of more AA units meant that most aircraft will struggle to survive in such an on-table environment - but by all means give it a play-test

The whole point of the Opportunity Fire mechanism (such as I understand it) is to avoid a common issue with IGO-UGO rules systems in that units cannot otherwise react to the actions of enemy units during the enemy turn. So troops could, for example, run across a street or from cover to cover with impunity. Opp Fire gives players the chance to use covering fire and avoid these unrealistic situations.
> I agree - but the Commander rules 'principle' is that you can only have 1 round of Opportunity Fire. So v1 allowing what was in-effect multiple Opportunity Fire, which happened automatically and had no element of chance for them not to occur (e.g. no Command rolls) made AA super weapons. Especially as the same weapons could subsequently go on to potentially shoot further a number of times as Commanded actions in their own turn - against both air as well as ground targets (if AAGs).

However, as you have pointed out, aircraft do not move during an opponent's turn so, unless there are on-table helicopters visible that they can blaze away at, AA units cannot fulfill their primary purpose during their own turn. They can only come into action during the opponent's turn. If a tank or infantry unit can fire multiple times during a player's turn then I cannot see any reason why a dedicated AA unit cannot fire multiple times during an opponent's turn, as that is what they are intended to do.

> by all means give it a go ... but all of the play-testing showed that 9 out of 10 airstrikes were aborted or KO'd and it just wasted a lot of gaming time

One other issue arises if AA fire is classed as opportunity fire. Opp Fire can only be used in the Command Phase. If a player has on-table helicopters then they can move or fire during the initiative phase and be invulnerable to AA.
> see comments on Initiative Actions below

The challenge you had with the CWCv.1 AA rules were that they allowed AA units the unlimited ability to fire at any & all enemy air-attacks - repeatedly. So each air-strike was in-effect treated as a new Opportunity fire event & not a Commanded action - which it could not be as it was occurring in the opponents turn. It was an anomalous rules mechanism that made no sense.
It also resulted in game-play by the attacking player (that wasted a lot of playing time) trying to work out where the 'dead-zones' where between the ranges of the various enemy AA units so that they could then position their aircraft there to allow them to attempt an airstrike without being blown out of the sky.

In addition the v.1 rule took no account of the restrictions on the ammo carried by a particular AA unit.
So as stated at the start of this thread a MANPAD SAM had as many shots as a vehicle mounted or static SAM unit - which is just not the case and was unrealistic.

The v.2 rule makes the defending player behave more realistically - planning which AA units Opportunity Fire to use against which enemy air threats (and hold some back in case of further in-turn air-attacks) and to not just fire them all off regardless.
It takes relatively little to cause an attacking aircraft to abort - or to cause its attack to be greatly weakened, and whilst v.2 has played down the impact of Air assets on the game (deliberately) there also needed to be some changes made to AA units in line with that, and to balance it.

The comparison with shooting by on-table MBTs etc. is not really valid as they can only fire multiple times in their own game-turn and mainly as Commanded fire.

In addition - in v1 there were only Airstrikes, when an attacking enemy air-asset appeared on-table and was shot at by all AA within range. In v.2 we now have on-table air-assets. NB: there have been comments that Air attacks in v.2 are ineffective (& that has been discussed elsewhere in detail) but in v.1 whilst the attacks might have been more effective, when they happened, actually getting through to the target was almost impossible.

Likewise, helicopters can do one thing with an Initiative action - they can only make one of the following 3 actions either Move, or Fire or Deploy - and they may only Fire at their nearest enemy. So in reality, yes, they can move to behind cover, but at some point they will have to break-cover to Fire, and as that requires a Move & Shoot Command, the moment they move into view they are potentially subject to enemy AA Opportunity fire.

Allowing AA assets to fire as (the equivalent of) Opportunity Fire against each new air-attack just doesn't work. Especially as the range of AA weapons in v.2 has been expanded to include weapons with considerably greater ranges and higher hits.

Whilst air-assets are included as part of a 'combined arms' game they are not the dominant arm that was expected. Even looking at the Balkan War, Syria and the Gulf Wars, until all enemy AA had been neutralized friendly air activity was managed very carefully.

But as I say ... give it a go. I'd be interested to hear how you get on, and also the impact it has on game-turn play-time.
Cheers
Mark