ATGW

[Superscribe]

Hi

The rules state that attack helicopters can use ATGW once per game turn but dedicated ATGW (such as Swingfire and BRDM-2 AT5), and Infantry ATGW (such as Milan) can fire their ATGW multiple times in a game turn. 

Helicopters have multiple ATGW launchers, and in some cases have more missiles than some of the other ATGW systems, but it seems that this has not been considered in the rules. Why are helicopters limited in this way when they are just as capable or better than some of the other ATGW systems?   

Similarly, Infantry ATGW have unlimited shots per game turn. Do they carry similar number of reloads as a typical dedicated ATGW vehicle, or should they also be restricted in some way to reflect a lower ammo load? 

If helicopter ATGW are to be restricted to 1 shot per game turn, then to get some sort of parity across the different systems, maybe Infantry ATGW should be restricted to 2 shots and dedicated ATGW vehicles restricted to 3 shots per game turn. None of them in reality have unlimited missiles!

We are looking for comments or suggestions about how best to play these systems as they impact markedly on our bigger games.

Regards
Chris

[Big Insect]

Infantry ATGWs do not necessarily have unlimited shots. It depends upon where in the lists they are located.
If they are in the Infantry Support section they are not classified as Dedicated and therefore only have a 1 shot per game-turn. This also reflects the way that Infantry ATGW tend to operate e.g. on a shoot & shoot type basis. Whereas, 'Dedicated' ATGW vehicles (for example) will tend to set themselves up for shooting at multiple targets, at long range, usually from a flank or rear position.

Limiting Helicopters to a single shot per game-turn is a games mechanism, designed to ensure that helicopters don't become 'super' weapons. Again, it reflects actual battlefield practice, as the helicopters are extremely vulnerable when static (in the air) and shooting ATGW. Also, whilst some helicopters have multiple ATGWs many don't and at the level we are playing the game the lists cannot and do not reflect the differences between those with limited ATGWs, like a Hind for example and a specific multiple ATGW helicopter (such as a British Lynx for example) with multiple ATGWs.

I hope that helps?
Thanks
Mark

[sultanbev]

I would have thought helo launched ATGW would get to fire multiple times in a turn (as much as they can activate), simply because they don't have enough fuel to fly over the battlefield for turns unlimited firing one shot at a time.

Although if I recall correctly, purchasing a helo in CWC represents multiple flights of that helo over several turns - is that correct?

The amount of reloads carried by foot-borne infantry is small, typically 3-6 missiles per launcher, so limiting them to once per turn makes sense.

[Big Insect]

Although if I recall correctly, purchasing a helo in CWC represents multiple flights of that helo over several turns - is that correct?

The amount of reloads carried by foot-borne infantry is small, typically 3-6 missiles per launcher, so limiting them to once per turn makes sense.

Correct in both cases Mark.

Cheers
Mark

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark

Thanks for the update.

So just to clarify using British Milan as an example, it is listed in the Support section as Inf:ATGW. Because it is in this section it is not Dedicated, therefore it is limited to a single ATGW shoot per game turn?

To clarify this in the rules, I think on p50 you need to mention that Inf:ATGW in a Support role such as Milan, can only fire once per game turn. Maybe it needs to be an additional bullet point and be added to the table as well

Rgds
Chris

[dylan]

Mark

could you clarify why non-dedicated ATGW can only use commanded fire, and cannot use opportunity fire?

[Big Insect]

Mark

could you clarify why non-dedicated ATGW can only use commanded fire, and cannot use opportunity fire?

Because a lot of non-dedicated vehicle mounted ATGW need to be prepared to fire. This is also one of the reasons they cannot fire at airborne helicopters. Saggers etc. on BMPs and MILAN on Marder IFVs are both good examples.

Also allowing large numbers of BMPs etc. to unleash a barrage of ATGWs as Opportunity Fire distorts the game + it was not tactical doctrine. Similarly with French SS.11s on AMX-13s and main gun launched US & Soviet ATGWs the time taken to prepare & load the ATGWs to be fired meant that it was preferable and more practical to use the main gun in an 'opportunity fire' situation. Also - the number of missiles carried, particularly by IFVs (4 x  MILANs in the case of a Marder) plus the need with IFVs (& AMX-13s) to reload externally all add to the fact that these are not 'opportunity fire' weapons.

Hope that helps.
Cheers
Mark

[dylan]

Oh, hang about.  I think I mis-understood.  What you're implying is that there are actually five different types of ATGWs in CWC-2 to keep track of:
Helicopter ATGWs
Dedicated vehicle ATGWs
Non-dedicated vehicle ATGWs
Dedicated infantry ATGWs
Non-dedicated infantry ATGWs

Each has subtly different rules that apply or don't apply.  For example, you're suggesting non-dedicated infantry ATGWs cannot use opportunity fire, but non-dedicated infantry ATGWs can use opp fire?

[Big Insect]

Oh, hang about.  I think I mis-understood.  What you're implying is that there are actually five different types of ATGWs in CWC-2 to keep track of:
Helicopter ATGWs
Dedicated vehicle ATGWs
Non-dedicated vehicle ATGWs
Dedicated infantry ATGWs
Non-dedicated infantry ATGWs

Each has subtly different rules that apply or don't apply.  For example, you're suggesting non-dedicated infantry ATGWs cannot use opportunity fire, but non-dedicated infantry ATGWs can use opp fire?

Oh yes, but I suspect that there are many more than 5  - you've missed out Hovercraft and Patrol boat launched ATGW and also 'static' ATGW (the Finns, Danes & Swedes all use them as coastal defense), and the French even used aircraft launched SS.11 ATGWs in the Algerian War against ground targets (mountain cave strongholds).

However, I have confused you - as it is not Opportunity fire that is restricted but Initiative fire.
Apologies. It comes from answering questions whilst I don't have my rules book in front of me 

As per Page 50-51 in the rules. Ignoring IATWs, fundamentally there are two types of ATGWs. Dedicated & Secondary.
Ignore Helicopters as they have a lot of their own special rules anyway.

Secondary ATGW are a complex bunch, in that (as stated in the reply above) they include main-gun launched ATGWs (such as the likes of US M60A2 'Starships' firing 'Shillelagh' ATGW missiles out of their main guns plus the Soviet equivalents) and those vehicles that have ATGWs as an externally fired secondary weapon - such as most IFVs (BMPs/BMDs/Marders/Bradleys/Warriors etc.etc.etc). This latter group also includes externally mounted ATGWs on MBTs - such as the SS.11 ATGW on an AMX-13 (for example) and there are 'rumors' that the Chinese also have some MBTs with externally mounted (& gun fired) ATGWs, but this has not been verified.

However, there is a strong argument that many of the Infantry Support ATGWs should also be classified as 'secondary' ATGWs due to the very limited amount of ammunition that they carry. This would differ in a situation where they were mounted in a vehicle (maybe a Landrover or another 4x4 for example) as they can carry additional missiles. Which makes things complex, as you can usually purchase a 4x4 from the VEH section of the list to mount your INF:ATGW teams. Typically, a 1980's British BAOR Infantry MILAN Team consisted of 3 men. One carried the launcher and the other two could each carry 2 missiles each (which weigh 16.4kg per tube). However, it is their bulk that makes it difficult to carry more reloads, although in combat a fifth could potentially be carried by the guy also carrying the launcher. This number of missiles equates to the number carried by many IFVs (e.g. a West German Marder carries only four MILAN missiles - for example).

However, as the INF:ATGWs role is to support the Infantry formations they are attached to/part of, against enemy armour, restricting them to not being able to use Opportunity fire sort of defeats the object of their role.

But no ATGW can fire as an Initiative action, as they are not a particularly 'spontaneous' weapon to use.

Cheers
Mark

[Shedman]

But no ATGW can fire as an Initiative action, as they are not a particularly 'spontaneous' weapon to use.

I'm sure I've seen Chuck Norris fire one from the hip

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

I'm sure I've seen Chuck Norris fire one from the hip

                      

[Big Insect]

I'm sure I've seen Chuck Norris fire one from the hip

Hmmm    does that count as a 'primary source'?     

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Hmmm    does that count as a 'primary source'?     

Of course...      

[Superscribe]

Hi Mark

You have confused me with your last post:

However, I have confused you - as it is not Opportunity fire that is restricted but Initiative fire. Apologies. It comes from answering questions whilst I don't have my rules book in front of me  

Nowhere on p50-51 does it state that ATGW cannot fire using their Initiative (if that was your intention then it needs to be made clearer on p50 please) and, the table on p50 does state which types can and cannot use Opp Fire (the only ones that are restricted are Secondary ATGW).

Each turn represents up to 30 mins in which time all ATGW will have time to reload. It's a given that if a unit uses Opp Fire then they cannot fire in Initiative Phase (which applies to all unit types), but if  they do not use Opp Fire in the enemy phase then I see no reason why an ATGW unit cannot fire in its Initiative Phase or in its Command Phase.  An ATGW unit will have had time to reload during the enemy phase so it will be ready to fire in its own phase, whether it uses Initiative or Commanded fire. 

However, a key factor that would affect an ATGW unit's ability to fire in Initiative Phase is the minimum range of 20cm for all ATGW (except IATW). Compare this to their initiative distance. It is probable that many ATGW will be unable to fire in their Initiative Phase, as their targets will be too close (Rigid 15cm and Normal 20cm Doctrine would not be able to use ATGW under initiative, whereas Flexible 25cm and Guerrilla 30cm Doctrine could, as long as the enemy is more than 20cm away.

Comments?

Regards
Chris

[Big Insect]

Hi Mark

You have confused me with your last post:

However, I have confused you - as it is not Opportunity fire that is restricted but Initiative fire. Apologies. It comes from answering questions whilst I don't have my rules book in front of me  

Nowhere on p50-51 does it state that ATGW cannot fire using their Initiative (if that was your intention then it needs to be made clearer on p50 please) and, the table on p50 does state which types can and cannot use Opp Fire (the only ones that are restricted are Secondary ATGW).

> Page 21 @ top states the Initiative distances for the different tactical doctrines- Rigid & Normal cannot fire ATGWs as an Initiative action as their Initiative distances mean that the ATGWs would not arm in time (e.g. 20cm or under). Admittedly armies with Flexible/Guerrilla/Partisan tac.doc can fire as an Initiative action, but only if their targets are at the maximum end of their ranges (e.g. the last 5cm for flexible & 10cm for Guerilla).

Each turn represents up to 30 mins in which time all ATGW will have time to reload. It's a given that if a unit uses Opp Fire then they cannot fire in Initiative Phase (which applies to all unit types), but if  they do not use Opp Fire in the enemy phase then I see no reason why an ATGW unit cannot fire in its Initiative Phase or in its Command Phase.  An ATGW unit will have had time to reload during the enemy phase so it will be ready to fire in its own phase, whether it uses Initiative or Commanded fire. 

> bottom of Page 21 states that ATGW cannot fire as Response Fire* (see Page 50) - where the table states clearly that Dedicated ATGWs can shoot in Response Fire but Secondary ATGWs cannot. This statement (on P.21) can (& will) be clarified to state that "some" ATGWs cannot fire in Response Fire

However, a key factor that would affect an ATGW unit's ability to fire in Initiative Phase is the minimum range of 20cm for all ATGW (except IATW). Compare this to their initiative distance. It is probable that many ATGW will be unable to fire in their Initiative Phase, as their targets will be too close (Rigid 15cm and Normal 20cm Doctrine would not be able to use ATGW under initiative, whereas Flexible 25cm and Guerrilla 30cm Doctrine could, as long as the enemy is more than 20cm away. > agreed

Comments?

> the 'issue' with all of this is that in an attempt not to duplicate more text than is really necessary, certain rules effects have been embedded in their core sections - so if something to do with ATGWs is in the Initiative section, I have tried (where possible) not to replicate it again in the shooting section and again in the ATGW section. I'm sort of damned if I do & damned if I dont here, as a lot of players like thinner rules sets, whilst others need/want more comprehensive ones 

> Cheers
Mark

Regards
Chris