Flail

Started by Heedless Horseman, 07 August 2022, 03:12:01 AM

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Heedless Horseman

Interesting perspective on combat. But.. as a 'peasant' weapon... unless 'drilled' to use as a weapon... as in Asia... I wonder?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpIPX30v62c

Against unarmoured or lightly equipped opponents... maybe! Think... possibly a 'shock' strike... then just 'bash with a stick'! Or get down and Dirty with a knife.
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

pierre the shy

Didn't these guys teach the well armoured Bohemian nobility a thing or two in their time?  ;)

https://www.pendraken.co.uk/nelm21-nhussite-flailmen-1238-p.asp
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

mmcv

The Cree of the Great Plains would have used a flail like weapon, though with no metal they used leather bags filled with rocks attached to a wooden handle.

Big Insect

There is (I'd suggest) a distinct difference between a 'military' flail and an ordinary agricultural implement.
 
The prime exponent of the use of military flails was the Hussites in the C15th - but we should not forget that these were mainly used by infantry fighting from inside armoured/fortified wagons, or field defenses/ditches in association with a wagon laager. The Hussites heavily adapted the basic farm implement by reinforcing the head with more metal and with spikes. They were also drilled and trained to fight effectively in units alongside hand gunners and crossbows, and Hussite flail units also had a mix of long spears, halberds and other polearms alongside the military flails.
So you'd have had a trained (& fanatically religious) infantryman, wielding their military flail mostly from within a protected wagon, and thus being higher (or at worst on a par height-wise) with his mounted Catholic Crusader enemy. If the Crusader knight/men-at-arms dismounted, the flail man was at even more of an advantage height-wise.

But I'd suggest that from accounts of other less well trained and organised Peasant revolt activity, that ordinary farmyard flails had no really significant impact on the poor fighting ability of the peasants involved.

Oriental flails can occasionally be seen in depictions of cavalry (Jurchen appear to use them - and they appear in some Song chinese illustrations) being shown wielded double-handed on horseback by armoured cavalry. How realistic these are is debatable, as they often show 2 'heroes' duelling, so may be more allegorical.
There are similar illustrations showing Ilkhanid Mongol (& Timurid) horsemen, again fighting 1 on 1 duals, with halberds on horseback. But personally I am not convinced these are 'massed combat' weapons.

Cheers

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

FierceKitty

Another point about the Hussite flail is that it isn't the ridiculous 6-inch handle and 2-foot chain of fantasy gaming. The hitting bit is hinged with just a half-dozen or so links to a halberd-length shaft, so would not be likely to create disorder in your unit if you missed.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

steve_holmes_11

There's a common thread with these "fancy weapons"; whether it's a flaming pig, a flail, goedendag or a knee mortar.

None were the standard issue for the bulk of the army.
They operated with a specific role within a combined arms setup.
We hear about the successful ones of often greatly inflate their importance.

Big Insect

You are right Steve - historians are often more interested in the 'oddities' than they are in the ordinary.

For example - reports on the Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974 focus a lot on the Cyprus National Guard using Marmot-Herrington armoured cars (a 30-35 year out of date vehicle) and T34/85s, not on the more standard mundane equipment that the Greek army had at the time.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

FierceKitty

Or the popular determination that three archaic Gladiators were all the air cover Malta had.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

Heedless Horseman

QuoteOr the popular determination that three archaic Gladiators were all the air cover Malta had.
Interesting! I had read book 'Faith, Hope and Charity' in long ago youth, and thought only 3 Gladiators, initially... but eventual reinforcements.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Malta_(World_War_II)
(40 Yrs ago. I should have been an Angry Young Man... but wasn't.
Now... I am an Old B******! )  ;)

FierceKitty

They were real aircraft, but the popular impression that they stood of the Axis airforces alone is up there with unbeatable Spitfires, the Dorset's sinking the Bismark, and only three hundred Spartans stopping a million Persians until betrayed.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

Ithoriel

QuoteThey were real aircraft, but the popular impression that they stood of the Axis airforces alone is up there with unbeatable Spitfires, the Dorset's sinking the Bismark, and only three hundred Spartans stopping a million Persians until betrayed.

But ... but ... but ... there WERE 300 Spartans!

Oh, wait you mean we tend to ignore the 700 Thespians (Men of Thespiae not actors!) and the 400 Theban hostages? :)

1300

I stood in the Persian shade
at the Hot Gates.
Felt salt tears on my cheeks
as we walked away
trailing our spears.

Leaving Leonidas
and the thirteen hundred,
Spartan soldiers,
Thespian farmers
and Theban merchants.

Sometimes what matters
is not victory nor defeat
but the willingness
of men to make a stand
and take what comes.

Stranger, go tell the Spartans
that Theban blood,
though unremembered,
stained the ground
as red as Spartan cloaks.

Friend, go tell the Ephors
that Thespians died
not for Sparta's laws
but for hearth and home
and those they loved.

 © Mike Headden
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

One suspects the 4000 odd Boations were more important...
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Ithoriel

QuoteOne suspects the 4000 odd Boations were more important...

The main state in Boeotia was Thebes ... who supported the Persians.

To my knowledge the only Boeotions who remained with Leonidas were the Thespians who, to be fair, mostly surrendered unlike the Spartans and Thebans.
There are 100 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who can work from incomplete data

FierceKitty

As I wryly improvised in a game where the Spartans had fallen woefully short of the ideal:

When you're in Lakedaemon, pause and say
Forgetful of their laws, we ran away
.
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.

FierceKitty

Quote from: FierceKitty on 18 August 2022, 03:53:17 AMThey were real aircraft, but the popular impression that they stood of the Axis airforces alone is up there with unbeatable Spitfires, the Dorset's sinking the Bismark, and only three hundred Spartans stopping a million Persians until betrayed.

OFF
I don't drink coffee to wake up. I wake up to drink coffee.