Wurttemberg Light Infantry - effect?

Started by Last Hussar, 06 August 2022, 10:23:03 PM

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Last Hussar

Good evening Gentlemen, Nobby.

The Blucher rules list Wuttemberg as having no skirmish bonus in the rules*. However I am reading that their Light infantry were well regarded.

Is this 'no skirmish' a mistake by Sam Mustafa, or was the light just not used like French legere?

*This is a specific bonus to skirmishing, all infantry have 'skirmish'. At skirmish range, all infantry throw half the dice for 'Volley' hitting on a 6. A skirmish ability allows one '5' to count.

I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

sultanbev

06 August 2022, 10:40:19 PM #1 Last Edit: 06 August 2022, 10:46:35 PM by sultanbev
Don't know about the rules, but Wurttemburg had separate light infantry battalions (later, whole regiments) which could definitely skirmish, and were probably better rated than the line - but the line battalions had no integral light companies, so I guess that is where the ruling has come from.
Each battalion had 3 infantry companies and 1 grenadier company.
The Jager Regiment had 2 battalions each of 4 companies of rifle skirmishers with no elite companies
The Light Regiment had 2 battalions each of 4 musket armed companies with no elite companies

The only source I've seen for this is Ray Johnson's book Napoleonic Armies, A Wargamers Campaign Directory 1805-1815. No other book I have mentions the integral organisation of Wurttemburg infantry battalions.

Last Hussar

Yeah, that's what I saw. Its just that Blucher doesn't work like that!

A base equals 3000-5000 men. That is effectively representing a division, or half division. There are no separate 'Skirmish' units on the table. A unit with 'effective' (historically) skirmishers gets the 'Skirmish attribute - so basically all French units.

The rules have
"French Model allied infantry" - one 5 counts as a 6 when skirmishing
and
"Other Allied infantry", which gets no bonus - i.e. getting a 5 doesn't count.

I can't see why Wurrtemberg counts as 'other' when their skirmishers have a good reputation, and there seems to be a lot of them - from the looks of it about a 1/3 were Light or Jager.

It basically comes down to in 1809 did they have the same proportion as the French, and use them like the French?

French model are "Line regiments of Kingdom of Italy, Duchy of Berg, or Kingdom of Holland. Guard or light infantry of Westphalia or Saxony."

All others count as 'Other' or Conscript', neither of which get the 'Skirmish' bonus - They can still Skirmish, but they don't get one '5' count as a hit. Wurttemberg is specifically listed in the notes for 'Other'.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

sultanbev

Quote from: Last Hussar on 06 August 2022, 11:07:48 PMI can't see why Wurrtemberg counts as 'other' when their skirmishers have a good reputation, and there seems to be a lot of them - from the looks of it about a 1/3 were Light or Jager.

I see. Going off their 1812 contribution, 12 battalions were committed of which 4 were lights, so yes, 1/3rd lights just as in the French army. Even better in fact, because half of those lights had rifles.

Just having a quick google round, it looks like the 1809 version had similar proportions.

Last Hussar

And it's 1809 I am doing

Now conflicted!
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

sultanbev

Well, it could be argued that they don't have the same number of lights as a French division, I just thought.
In a French 12-battalion division, you have 4 battalions of lights generally from the Legere regiments, plus another 8 leger companies from the 8 line battalions, so equivalent of 32 light companies.

Whereas your Wurttemburg division of 12 battalions has 16 light companies in total in its 2 light and 2 rifle battalions.

Would that explain the rules difference?

sultanbev

The other question, did they use them like the French, is a more important question.
John H Gill's book With Eagles to Glory pg.130 has the answer.
Just before the 1809 campaign started, they retrained on the French model, using attack columns and skirmishing tactics, whilst retaining 2-deep line. Apparently they took to it with enthusiasm and skill.
So yes, Blucher rules have made a mistake in this case, treat them like the French for close columns, like British for firing and skirmishing.

Last Hussar

Ahh, I didn't think about relative numbers of "lights". That could well be the explanation. I'll do a comparison.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

Last Hussar

Found this

The Wurttemberg infantry regiment had 2 battalions. Each battalion consisted of 1 grenadier and 3 musketier companies.

There isn't a light company like the French had, just the jager battalion. My assumption is this provides the normal game skirmish, but hasn't the extra fired power provided by the flank companies of the line also coming forward. So what you said, but in the opposite direction.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

John Cook

Quote from: Last Hussar on 06 August 2022, 10:23:03 PMThe Blucher rules list Wuttemberg as having no skirmish bonus in the rules

I haven't seen the Blucher rules but they appear to be plain wrong.  If infantry battalions didn't have light companies, skirmishers were found from elsewhere in the battalion, typically the third rank, which was the solution for the Austrians and Prussians for example.  The reality is that all infantry could skirmish regardless of nationality, and regardless of specialism. 

I have a copy of the Württemberg 1809 Regs which state that the normal order of an infantry regiment is in two ranks.  Part Five describes dispersing in open order (Debandade bei der leichten infanterie) which could be done either by a company or an entire battalion.

Faber du Faur's illustrations of the 1812 campaign, in which he participated, show Württemberg line infantry skirmishing as light infantry, in the usual pairs, one firing, the other covering the firer, which was the standard method everywhere.

Last Hussar

I think the rules are right. All infantry can skirmish, its just certain armies get a small bonus to this. This would be armies with "skirmish heavy". For instance the French not only have a light company with each battalion, but a fifth of units are legere.

Württemberg have the light units, but no integral light with battalions, so they don't have the extra the French do - the additional units are replacing the light in the battalion.
I have neither the time or the crayons to explain why you are wrong.

GNU PTerry

John Cook

Light regiments and battalions are not unique to the French.  Neither are skirmish elements within a line battalion unique to the French.   
The Prussians have a fusilier battalion in every regiment, even in the Landwehr and Reserve regiments one battalion was supposed to undertake the role of fusiliers, approaching half the Russian infantry are Jager, approaching a third of Austrian infantry are Jager or Grenzers, and the British have their Light Infantry and Rifle battalions. 
All these are in addition to skirmish elements within the line battalions, either a dedicated light company or where that does not exist, typically a skirmish platoon in each company usually drawn from the third rank, which is exactly what the French did before they decided to raise voltigeur companies.  Just because a battalion doesn't have a light company it doesn't mean that they do not have skirmish elements embedded within it.   
Württemberg line regiments did have a skirmish element. They might not have had a light company but they had skirmish trained elements and every company was expected to skirmish if necessary. 
The Wurttemberg light regiments were not there to fill a gap in the line regiments' skirmishing ability any more than French light regiments were there to fill a gap in French line regiments' skirmish capability. 
Giving armies with light companies within a battalion a special bonus makes no sense to me.       

sultanbev

Quote from: John Cook on 07 August 2022, 02:16:06 AMhave a copy of the Württemberg 1809 Regs which state that the normal order of an infantry regiment is in two ranks.  Part Five describes dispersing in open order (Debandade bei der leichten infanterie) which could be done either by a company or an entire battalion.

Faber du Faur's illustrations of the 1812 campaign, in which he participated, show Württemberg line infantry skirmishing as light infantry, in the usual pairs, one firing, the other covering the firer, which was the standard method everywhere.

Thanks for that John, it's frustrating that this kind of knowledge hasn't generally made it into English language texts.