Yom Kippur War armour question

Started by pbeccas, 30 June 2022, 07:05:05 AM

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pbeccas

Hi guys
What was the most common tank used by the Israelis when they first counterattacked the Egyptians who had crossed the Suez?
Just trying to work out a force based on that event.
Thanks
Paul

flamingpig0

Quote from: pbeccas on 30 June 2022, 07:05:05 AMHi guys
What was the most common tank used by the Israelis when they first counterattacked the Egyptians who had crossed the Suez?
Just trying to work out a force based on that event.
Thanks
Paul

IIRC the M48 or M60
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

pbeccas


Baron Counterpane

I used to have a copy of the SPI boardgame Suez to Golan. I'm pretty sure all of the Suez scenarios had M60s and all of the Golan scenarios had Centurions.

pbeccas


sultanbev

Noting the equipment of the following brigades from the MicroMark lists, at the time of the crossing:
600th Armoured brigade: 48x M60A1
421st Armoured brigade: 81x M48A5
217th Armoured Brigade: 72x Centurion, 15x M48A5
460th Armoured Brigade: 53x Centurion, 24x M48A5
11th Mech Brigade: 30x Shermans and Centurions
164th Armoured Brigade: 40x Centurion
14th Armoured Brigade: 43x M48A5, 24x M60A1
430 tanks = 72x M60A1, 163x M48A5, 180x Centurion, 15x Sherman (ish)

NB1 There are brigades I might not have included as I haven't done all the lists yet, but it gives you a good picture.
NB2; by this stage of the war tanks were much more mixed up and the "all of the Suez scenarios had M60s and all of the Golan scenarios had Centurions" whilst kind of true at the beginning of the war, was no longer relevant.

pbeccas


sultanbev

Bugger, I've just realised I've misread your question!
"when they first counterattacked the Egyptians" not when the Israelis counterattacked across the canal, duh



sultanbev

So, revisiting the files, we have:
875th Armoured Brigade: 33x M51, 11x M50 Shermans
14th Armoured Brigade: 35x Centurion, 94x M48A5
401st Armoured Brigade: 105x M48A5
460th Armoured Brigade: 79x Centurion, 55x M48A5, 15x M60A1
204th Mechanised Brigade: 35x M48A5
= 462 tanks, 289 of them M48A5.
reinforcements:
217th Armoured Brigade: 105x Centurion, reduced to 62 by 0800hrs, 8th October; ~40 tanks by 9th October
500th Armoured Brigade: 25x Centurion
204th Mechanised Brigade: 35x M48A5
240th Mechanised Brigade: ?
421st Armoured Brigade: 105x M48A5, 78 by 0800hrs 9th October
600th Armoured brigade: 111x M60A1
274th Armoured Brigade: 120?x Tiran-4/5
164th Armoured brigade: 70x Centurion
11th Mechanised Brigade: 35x M51, 11x M50, +35x Centurion
= 1116 tanks,
120x Tiran-4/5
349x Centurion
22x M50 Sherman
70x M51 Sherman
126x M60A1
429x M48A5
So, yes, M48A5 is the most common.

kustenjaeger

As I understand it, technically the M48s in the October War were Magach 3 being modifications to the M48A3 - the M48A5 US upgrade adopted many of the changes the IDF had made.

Edward

pbeccas

Quote from: sultanbev on 30 June 2022, 03:06:02 PMBugger, I've just realised I've misread your question!
"when they first counterattacked the Egyptians" not when the Israelis counterattacked across the canal, duh

Still really good appreciated info because that phase would be the ultimate end goal of my project.  There's three phases really.  Israelis counterattack and get smashed.  Egyptians have a crack and get smashed.  Then the successful pushback by the Israelis.  It's a really interesting battle.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Note on Israeli tank names - Centurions refited are S'hot and M60's or M48's are NagamS'hot. Refits in 73 were new engines in the Cents and M48's with L7/M68 guns in the M48. Most M48's had the MG sub turret removed, but there hadn't been time for M60's.

FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Smartbomb

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 01 July 2022, 07:55:13 AMNote on Israeli tank names - Centurions refited are S'hot and M60's or M48's are NagamS'hot. Refits in 73 were new engines in the Cents and M48's with L7/M68 guns in the M48. Most M48's had the MG sub turret removed, but there hadn't been time for M60's.



NB M48s and M60s were Magachs, Nagmashots were Cents turned into a heavy APCs (kinda like the Azcharit).

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Mea Culpa, but point remains the same, all were renamed. Another oddity is that all Israeli Cents were called Mk 5, because that was the first model they got, and most of the 1/2 tracks were M5's, but called M3's. They came from our war reserve stocks in the early/mid 60's.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

kustenjaeger

Also the Sho't in 1973 was either the Sho't Kal (reengined with Continental Diesel engine and other improvements) or in some units, the original Sho't with a petrol Meteor engine (all Meteors were apparently converted to Kal by 1974).  The main physical external difference was a raised engine deck on the Kal. 

Edward