Weapon ranges / data

Started by JJ252, 19 June 2022, 12:22:38 AM

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JJ252

How were the weapon/gun ranges determined for these rules?

Play testing the rules last night, a 1970's based game. The situation was a company of Soviet T55s approaching a town occupied by Bundeswehr infantry armed with Carl Gustav anti tank weapons.

The stats are
Charlie G 5/40 H (effectively 800m real life)

The T55s were in the open and the German player opened fire as soon as the T55s came into range at 40cm. No firing modifiers - so a straight 4/5/6 to hit. A very optimistic hit chance of 50% at 40cm/800m range. So with 5 shots permitted by the rules, it was expected 2 or 3 hits should result on average.

Looking at the Wikipedia page for Carl Gustav weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_8.4cm_recoilless_rifle

gives the following range estimates for CG weapon
Moving vehicles - effective range 350-400m
Stationary vehicle 500m
Firing smoke or HE against an area target 1000m

There is no data for the accuracy of the CG - however the Wikipedia page for the RPG7 has some accuracy information, which I would guess is probably a reasonable guide to similar unguided AT rockets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7

Effective range for an RPG7 is given as 330m with maximum range 700m
RPG7 accuracy is given as
50m 100%
100m 96%
200m 51%
300m 22%
400m 9%
500m 4%

SO at 800m range, if the accuracy of the CG is something similar to an RPG, the hit chance should have been probably less than 1% at 40cm/800m. Even if the CG is 10x more accurate than a RPG, the hit chance at 800m/40cm should be no more than 10%

The game data then is far too optimistic for a CG, a 3/4/5 to hit is very optimistic beyond 200m/10cm table top. In the AT role the range should be reduced to circa 25cm table top for a CG
A 2 man CG team usually had 5-6 rounds - so how come they role 5 hit dice and can continue to do so. Do we assume there is a large stockpile of CG rounds close to hand???

T55 100mm gun
Turning to the T55 give 4/60 as the firing data. This is 1200m maximum range real world
The Wikipedia page for a T55 quotes when firing APDS could penetrate 275mm at 2000m (100cm table top).
This sort of figure is also given in the Osprey book about T55 tanks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-54/T-55

The maximum gun range is given as 14000m - not that is particularly relevant to direct anti tank fire.

However the game rules only give a range of 60cm. So 40cm/800m short of the published data.

The issue with tank guns is usually reduced accuracy/reduced penetration against a target rather than range - so to limit a T55 to 60cm seems a little excessive/restrictive.
A T55 standard ammunition load was often 17 HE, 15 AP and 6 HEAT rounds

How were the weapon range categories - whether guns or unguided rockets arrived at for these rules?

Shouldn't the game weapon data - ranges / hit probability etc at least have some basis of reality??
From these 2 examples there seems to be none. No doubt other game data would give similar odd results compared to published information. Did anybody research weapon data for these rules?

I'm afraid as my wargame opponent said CWC is looking like Warhammer with tanks. Amusing to play for a laugh.
Of course, I don't understand the way these rules work...

flamingpig0

I think that the CG  being classed as an H weapon would only be able to engage tanks at half range that would be to say at 20cm.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 19 June 2022, 01:59:53 AMI think that the CG  being classed as an H weapon would only be able to engage tanks at half range that would be to say at 20cm.

Thats correct. It can engage buildings at 40cm, but tanks at 20cm. From a rusty memory British doctrine was 200m for moving and 400m for a stationary tank.
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JJ252

19 June 2022, 07:12:03 AM #3 Last Edit: 19 June 2022, 07:35:14 AM by JJ252
So why not put the range in the game data army lists as 20cm in the AT column, rather than 40cm. Leave the 40cm for the AP column of the  army weapons table
Hiding the 'H' rule application to infantry anti tank weapons in a paragraph about howitzers isn't great writing, even though repeated again later in the Infantry Support section.
Still too optimistic permitting 5 hit dice for the CG.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Think that is answered in my previous reply. To engage non-vehicular hard targets.
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Big Insect

Quote from: JJ252 on 19 June 2022, 12:22:38 AMHow were the weapon/gun ranges determined for these rules?

Play testing the rules last night, a 1970's based game. The situation was a company of Soviet T55s approaching a town occupied by Bundeswehr infantry armed with Carl Gustav anti tank weapons.

The stats are
Charlie G 5/40 H (effectively 800m real life)

The T55s were in the open and the German player opened fire as soon as the T55s came into range at 40cm. No firing modifiers - so a straight 4/5/6 to hit. A very optimistic hit chance of 50% at 40cm/800m range. So with 5 shots permitted by the rules, it was expected 2 or 3 hits should result on average.

Looking at the Wikipedia page for Carl Gustav weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Gustaf_8.4cm_recoilless_rifle

gives the following range estimates for CG weapon
Moving vehicles - effective range 350-400m
Stationary vehicle 500m
Firing smoke or HE against an area target 1000m

There is no data for the accuracy of the CG - however the Wikipedia page for the RPG7 has some accuracy information, which I would guess is probably a reasonable guide to similar unguided AT rockets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7

Effective range for an RPG7 is given as 330m with maximum range 700m
RPG7 accuracy is given as
50m 100%
100m 96%
200m 51%
300m 22%
400m 9%
500m 4%

SO at 800m range, if the accuracy of the CG is something similar to an RPG, the hit chance should have been probably less than 1% at 40cm/800m. Even if the CG is 10x more accurate than a RPG, the hit chance at 800m/40cm should be no more than 10%

The game data then is far too optimistic for a CG, a 3/4/5 to hit is very optimistic beyond 200m/10cm table top. In the AT role the range should be reduced to circa 25cm table top for a CG
A 2 man CG team usually had 5-6 rounds - so how come they role 5 hit dice and can continue to do so. Do we assume there is a large stockpile of CG rounds close to hand???

T55 100mm gun
Turning to the T55 give 4/60 as the firing data. This is 1200m maximum range real world
The Wikipedia page for a T55 quotes when firing APDS could penetrate 275mm at 2000m (100cm table top).
This sort of figure is also given in the Osprey book about T55 tanks

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-54/T-55

The maximum gun range is given as 14000m - not that is particularly relevant to direct anti tank fire.

However the game rules only give a range of 60cm. So 40cm/800m short of the published data.

The issue with tank guns is usually reduced accuracy/reduced penetration against a target rather than range - so to limit a T55 to 60cm seems a little excessive/restrictive.
A T55 standard ammunition load was often 17 HE, 15 AP and 6 HEAT rounds

How were the weapon range categories - whether guns or unguided rockets arrived at for these rules?

Shouldn't the game weapon data - ranges / hit probability etc at least have some basis of reality??
From these 2 examples there seems to be none. No doubt other game data would give similar odd results compared to published information. Did anybody research weapon data for these rules?

I'm afraid as my wargame opponent said CWC is looking like Warhammer with tanks. Amusing to play for a laugh.
Of course, I don't understand the way these rules work...


As stated the H against a weapon means that the range is halved against Armoured targets

The question about ranges is an interesting one - there are the stated manufacturers ranges (as you have quoted from Osprey & Wiki etc), which with many Soviet tank guns will actually outdistance NATO guns, but then there is the reality of how they were used in practice.

Soviet doctrine and training means that tank guns were fired at much (much) closer ranges than their optimum ranges. Also training was less about accuracy, and more about volume of fire.
So the rules take this into account and they do that because wargamers will not 'behave' as soviet tank crews were trained to do, as it puts them at a disadvantage. That is human nature, so the ranges, especially for Soviet/Warpact/Chinese and Arab States tank guns will be a lot lower in the rules than the manufacturers specifications. Other sets of Cold War rules use similar mechanism, those that don't will create a playing experience that is not really attempting to create a realistic and balanced game.

With regards to the effectiveness of a CG - these are savable hits and most tanks have a 50% chance of saving against them. The effect of the 'H' designation is to reduce the range to c.400m in 'real' life - so it is actually realistic at 20cm on-table.

The H against the stats is prominent in the AT column in the lists. It is there because you can shoot the AT stats at full range at fortifications and buildings.

Unsuppressed Infantry in defense in a village are tough nut for an unsupported tank company to deal with at the best of time. Hitting them with artillery ahead of the tanks getting in range of the CGs is always a good idea.

Hope that helps
Mark

 
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JJ252

WHich is why if you apply some form of ammunition limitations and have a very small hit chance at long range - you quickly realise that opening fire at long range with Soviet guns, especially, is a waste of time & ammunition. Mainly due to poor stabilisers for the vehicles.

sultanbev

Just for curios sake, I looked up what I use: in all cases halted firer, halted target in open, firer not receiving fire.
Carl Gustav S550 firing HEAT
50m 90%
100m 87%
200m 82%
300m 75%
400m 65%
500m 60%
700m 50%
RPG7 firing HEAT:
50m 85%
100m 80%
200m 60%
300m 40%
400m 25%
500m 20%
But these assume 2-3 shots actually fired, rather than individual rocket hit chances. For individual shots I would deduct 15% from these. My CG stats are probably generous! Not that any of my wargamers would fire it at that distance anyway.

For the 100mm with optical rangefinder, the effective range with BM8 APDS is 1100m (that is, 70% hit chance), maximum effective range 2250m (30% hit chance). BM8 APDS penetration I have as 26cm/1000m, 22cm/2000m.