Started by Big Insect, 17 June 2022, 11:31:35 PM
QuoteThe Swedes for their part, had some choice words to say about those tests and British gunnery in general!National bun fights and the Chieftain aside. A key question is how should the S Tank be modelled within the constraints available?Currently, it is modelled as having WW2 hit/save values (4 hits, 5 save), but with the low profile and dozer blade abilities. Now, I am not clear if this is a special low profile ability unique to the S-Tank that applies all the time or the standard low profile ability that only applies in certain situations as per page 7 of the rules (e.g. if in a low or high area terrain feature etc.). The Swedish army list seems to imply it applies all the time (but this contradicts the rules). > that is correct it is automatically 'low profile' all the time - from all around. If you compare it to other contemporary 'turretless' AFVs - it is generally a lot smaller, lower in overall height and has a much lower silhouette and profile.If it is the latter (only applies in certain situations), then the S-Tank is okay for defense, but worse than a T-54 in the open at medium range and lower. This seems a little bit off. > see above - that is not the case I would be tempted to increase the save value of the S-Tank to 4 (to reflect the highly sloped armour and superior reversing abilities that allows it to keep the front facing the enemy easier). The points would need to increase too. > I am very open to that as an ideaYou could increase the hit value too, but with low profile and dozer blades, this could make the S-Tank too powerful in defense? I feel some in game testing might help find the right balance here (I will give it a go, when I have time). > Great idea - much appreciated. I rarely get to run my Swedes out these days - usually against my Soviet Murmansk DivisionAs mentioned, should the S-Tank speed be decreased? Its off-roading abilities were apparently poorer than the Centurion. > as is borne out by the report below. Although that seems to imply that it is unfirm ground rather than off-road more widely and I suspect that on hard ground it might have faired quite well. The shorter track-base issue is interesting. As I suspect that this is a weight to track length ratio thing, as smaller, lighter vehicles, such as Scorpions, Wiesel's etc. seem to do ok on soft-going.
Quote from: sultanbev on 20 June 2022, 11:12:26 AMFWIWthese are the maximum (usually turret) armour values I've used successfully for over 30 years, the hulls are lower usuallyM1A1 - 46cm ChobhamM1 - 40cm ChobhamM1A1HA 51cm DU-ChobhamM1A2 71cm DU-ChobhamChallenger 1 46cm chobhamChallenger 2 70cm ChobhamChieftain Mk1-2 28cmCheiftain Mk3-10 39cmChieftain Stillbrew 49cm ceramic layer (turret only)M48A1-A3 23cmM60A1 26cmM60A1 with ERA 31cm ERAAMX-30B2 24cm (turret only)AMX30 16cmT-72M1 36cm ceramic layer T-72 monkey model 28cm T-72B 42cm ceramic layer T-62 24cmT-55 20cmT-64A 33cm ceramic layerT-64B 37cm ceramic layerStrv-103B S-Tank 38cmM84 Yugoslav 32cmAlthough the armour type is more important than the thickness in terms of being knocked out. Even if the figures are not quite correct, they will be a good relative guide.
Quote from: HogansHeroes on 22 June 2022, 10:09:49 AMThanks for the responses all. I did a completely unscientific, but fun test game of a company of S-Tanks vs a company of T-62s. The S-Tank (with current stats) is really in trouble up against T-62, especially at medium and closer ranges. The T-62 has the same number of hits, a better save value of 4, and one extra shot (5 vs 4, although lower range). All for 20 less points! Even with the low profile ability, my poor S-Tanks stood no chance. To be fair, I chose fairly dense terrain (real world map with plenty of urban). Maybe if I had kept it at longer range and used the extra 5 speed advantage it could have been better. I might have to do a few more tests (plus try out giving the S-Tank a 4 save and perhaps an extra hit).
Quote from: Kiwidave on 22 June 2022, 12:30:31 PMComing into this thread with little knowledge of either tank in the OP, but isn't the S tank more of a tank-destroyer than an MBT? So more shoot-and-scoot than go toe-to-toe with the enemy?