ATGW evasion rolls

Started by Dice Dad, 11 June 2022, 01:28:52 PM

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Dice Dad

Hello all. On pl.50 of the CWC2 rulebooks it talks about units evading ATGW fire and says "....the evasion will be unsuccessful if any of the dice score equal to or greater than the cover of the unit." What does this mean?

I'm assuming it relates to the to hit number when firing but it's not very clear.

Thanks in advance.

Dice Dad

Sorry the example clarified the answer.

JJ252

Looking at the film footage coming from the Ukraine, evading incoming ATGW doesn't appear to happen very often.

Is this rule too optimistic?

I appreciate the Ukrainian's only release film footage that suits there needs.

sultanbev

Dunno about CWC, but in my gaming rules it's only really effective against 1st Gen ATGW and slow early 2nd Gen ATGW, and doesn't happen very often. Below 1km launcher->target range it's virtually impossible.

Closed down tanks have no chance of spotting the incoming missiles and attempting to evade, dodge to cover or popping smoke. 

Big Insect

Quote from: JJ252 on 11 June 2022, 08:15:21 PMLooking at the film footage coming from the Ukraine, evading incoming ATGW doesn't appear to happen very often.

Is this rule too optimistic?

I appreciate the Ukrainian's only release film footage that suits there needs.

Play a few games and you'll see that in the reality of a table-top game it is hard to really make it work that often.
Also, these rules are not designed around 'ultra-modern' post 1990 ATGW systems, but where they appear in the lists they are very much more effective.

Cheers
Mark
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Mark the way it's written ATM a MACLOS missile can be evaded on 5 or below, so there is a 1 in 6 chance of hitting and 5/6ths chance of evading. Seems a tad excecessive
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flamingpig0

QuoteMark the way it's written ATM a MACLOS missile can be evaded on 5 or below, so there is a 1 in 6 chance of hitting and 5/6ths chance of evading. Seems a tad excecessive


If I am reading the rules right the MACLOs missile it hits would only suppress on a further 6 - id does seem a little useless.
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Big Insect

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 13 June 2022, 08:46:19 AMIf I am reading the rules right the MACLOs missile it hits would only suppress on a further 6 - id does seem a little useless.

You suppress on an under to hit factor - so you suppress on a 1-5 roll

Interesting that we are all getting 'animated' about this in CWC-II - as it has been like this since the dawn of CWC-I - with no complaints.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Gwydion

Okay,  -  I'm not sure how the MCLOS ATGW thing works

My reading was that you can evade ATGW if :
+30cm away
You throw lower than the cover (in the open; 3 or lower)

MCLOS adds +2 to hit so does that mean the requirement to evade moves to 5 or lower or does the 'cover' level determine the evade requirement and remain 3 or lower?

A successful evade (whichever variant above) would mean that you moved the cover level from 'open' to 'partial cover' and this raises the requirement to hit to 5 or 6.
BUT – as the MCLOS adds +2 to the requirement to hit – it is 7.

Is that an automatic miss? Or do you always hit if a natural 6 is thrown?

flamingpig0

QuoteYou suppress on an under to hit factor - so you suppress on a 1-5 roll


Not for the first time in my life I am confused! - from the rulebook page 42- " If any of the dice in the suppression roll score equal to or greater than the original score required to hit the target then the unit will become suppressed"

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 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: Big Insect on 13 June 2022, 11:29:34 AMYou suppress on an under to hit factor - so you suppress on a 1-5 roll

ER no - on OVER the to hit roll in any game I ever played !
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Smartbomb

Quote from: Gwydion on 13 June 2022, 12:11:54 PMIs that an automatic miss?


Yes, I think so. And I think the original cover is the evade stat you use.

That said regarding the MCLOS discussion: there is a whole section  in errata or the army list threads about how useless MCLOS weapons were. They have something like a 10% hit ratio.

Given how they are only on lists as very early ATGMs in a time when most AT weapons are still guns, I don't think the stats are overly harsh from a realism standpoint. From a fun standpoint? That depends on the individual.

flamingpig0

13 June 2022, 03:18:23 PM #12 Last Edit: 13 June 2022, 03:36:47 PM by flamingpig0
Quote from: Smartbomb on 13 June 2022, 03:04:02 PMYes, I think so. And I think the original cover is the evade stat you use.

That said regarding the MCLOS discussion: there is a whole section  in errata or the army list threads about how useless MCLOS weapons were. They have something like a 10% hit ratio.



I would suggest that it might be any idea to reduce the cost of MCLOS systems in the army lists? they seem overpriced at the moment.
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

Gwydion

Quote from: Smartbomb on 13 June 2022, 03:04:02 PMGiven how they are only on lists as very early ATGMs in a time when most AT weapons are still guns, I don't think the stats are overly harsh from a realism standpoint.
Oh, I agree. They appear to have been almost useless in the Yom Kippur war. No quibbles with them being 'sub optimal'. I was just wondering because an earlier poster had suggested there remained a 1 in 6 chance of a hit if the target evaded and I didn't read it like that.

Smartbomb

Quote from: Gwydion on 13 June 2022, 04:22:47 PMOh, I agree. They appear to have been almost useless in the Yom Kippur war. No quibbles with them being 'sub optimal'. I was just wondering because an earlier poster had suggested there remained a 1 in 6 chance of a hit if the target evaded and I didn't read it like that.

It may fall into the "no modifiers can make a target unhittable" caveat in the early pages of the rules. Evade might only make them unhi/table if they duck out of LOS. The writers would have to say for certain.