Feedback/Playesters wanted for Ancients Rules

Started by everwill, 08 June 2022, 12:22:33 PM

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everwill

Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 June 2022, 04:14:58 PMWill, you may note that few posts fail to go off the rails within ten minutes. On the other hand, nobody's insulted you yet, which may be a record.

My feelings would be a little hurt if that didn't happen.  :)

sultanbev

Just reading through it, as I'm looking for an ancients-medieval set that isn't single D6 combat resolution and isn't element based.
-1 for 28mm based
-1 for hex grids but +1/2 for suggesting inches instead.
+2 for using D10s instead of single D6s Yay!!
Missing word under Scale
"It's important for all figures on the same [] to be the same scale"


+1 You actually mention a figure ratio of sorts, 100 bases or single 28mm figures = 4000 men but later go on to say 1 Troop is 50 men.

+2 The Contested Ground and provoked attacks rules are very interesting. I am convinced by logic that charges are not the only way combat occured in the ancients era, I reckon many times units just walk to within c30m of each other, start throwing insults, banging shields, throw rocks/javelins,/darts, then odd clumps of braver men jaunt forward and swing swords at each other or whatever then fall back again and repeat ad-infinitum until one lot walks away overrawed or both get their gander up or an officer actually intervenes and they actually run at each other.
The Contested Ground idea seems to cover this. And I'm not sure any other rules allows 'none-charge walking into combat'.

For games without hexes I'm getting the idea of a 4" across base diorama with dead bodies and broken weapons that you place between two units engaged in the Contested Ground to denote they are thus engaged. I'm sure 3d printing would be a cheap way of making the several numbers you'd need for a game.


+2 you've got Bracing to receive a charge as an option, yay - especially important for foot being charged by mounted.
-1 I'm no longer a fan of players getting to move ALL their units each turn
-1 I'm not a fan of buckets of dice for combat, which is implied by the combat rules
+1 it seems play is by alternate units rather than by alternate sides, is that right?
-1 it takes more than a move to turn a unit about face 180* (4MP of a 3MP movement rate for foot). Ordering the files to about face and the unit then move off in the opposite direction, albeit with different men at the new front, would be quick.
-1 turning a unit to flank if charged. Most units in ancient era are 500-1000 men strong in 4-10 ranks deep, wheeling about quickly in response to a nearby flank charge would be nigh on impossible. Even if there is now some thought that trained units could pivot about their middle. However, the men on the end files could turn quickly to present some kind of weapons, perhaps this is what you mean? But it shouldn't be as effective as meeting the whole unit head on.

The word ambit is going to get parodied as armpit and people are going to start using wrist-to-elbow lengths as command radii  :D

Field of View is perhaps an alternative? Eye of the General? Meh, you'd want a single word. There's probably a German word for it with 30 syllables....

Overall, some good ideas there.

everwill

Firstly, thanks sultanbev for the comments.  I take them to heart and appreciate it. I corrected the typo (thank you for that) and I will craft a full response when time permits, but I want to address this. 

Quoteit seems play is by alternate units rather than by alternate sides, is that right?

Well, yes ... and no.  And after I explain it a bit here, please let me know if the rules fell down or if you just read them a little quickly. 

It is a game of phases and all movement occurs in the Movement Phase.  During the Movement Phase, the proactive player moves all of his troops then reactive players moves all his troops.  Simple enough ... but not that simple. 

During the proactive player's movement, he moves each of his units unit-by-unit. And any/all of those units may end up charging or interacting with the opponent.  If a proactive unit charges the opponent, the opponent can react. 

And that can happen with each unit when the reactive player moves his army.  So, it's a blend of unit-by-unit movemement and one-side then the other-side movement.

As for
QuoteI'm no longer a fan of players getting to move ALL their units each turn
, you may be a little surprised to know that I agree with you.  Furthermore, I like to roll movement (so you don't know exactly how far a unit will move each turn). 

But the reason I don't have this in there is because this Blood of Ancients introduces some new concepts and I think players only want so many new concepts at a time when they are learning a new game.  For this reason, as I've told others, I'm trying to keep this first rule book as dead simple as possible.

From there I'll add complications until it's just as unplayable as Advanced Squad Leader;)

mmcv

I've gone through the core document and added some comments and thoughts, hopefully they're of some help. 

It's mostly reasonably clear, but I think there are some improvements that could be made to where the information appears in the rules. I found it quite jarring that there seemed to be a lot of key information in the glossary which really could do with their own sections, e.g. terrain, inspiration, bracing. These should all have their own section in the main rules or in their relevant subsection, as should any internet information when first introduced. 

To my mind a glossary should be a summary of the rules, not a place to introduce new information.

I don't seem to be able to comment on the Ego... doc, but echo previous comments about the use of bailiwick, stick with something like command as you've not been using archaic terms elsewhere, and it obscures the clarity a bit.

I'd also be inclined towards including some or all the leader rules in the core set, since they provide a lot of the flavour. You could easily add a line saying you might want to skip bits of these in your first few games until more comfortable, but I'd be more inclined towards a core set of command rules that can then be expanded with extra actions rather than two different sets. I don't think the rules linking command to rating are overly complex to the point of needing to be "advanced rules".

In fact the leadership rules probably are what will make it break it. Reading through the core rules I wasn't overly keen to try them, but those command and hero actions add a lot more flavour and depth, and command and control are such central parts of what a wargame is. I might be tempted to try out some of the rules at some point, though I've very little hobby time these days so no promises!

I do like the idea of the provoking attack, that's a great concept to include. I was initially a little unsure about the strength/disruption/casualty removal but on further reading it has the potential to be an elegant way to manage losses and for those of us who multi base shouldn't be too difficult to track with markers or dice!

everwill

Matthew,

Thank you for the read through and Google comments. They were most helpful and I've added a credit for you as an advisor. I've commented in the document on your comments and made changes to the document based upon your valuable suggestions. 

That said, you mentioned how jarring you found the Glossary.  The way I use the Glossary is a unique stylistic decision I made to solve a problem I see.  I'm not 100% confident that I made the right choice. But, if I may, I'll flesh out why I made this decision to see if you find the logic in this unusual choice. 

Firstly, let me frame the argument with some assumptions that are derived from my personal experience.  My friends/play testers are well-educated fellows.  They are lawyers, tech workers, historians, retired military and former intelligence officers.  They have played this game many times. In addition, we play a lot of different systems and they pick those systems up quickly. 

In addition to playing this game regularly with locals/friends, I've demonstrated this game at gaming conventions.  I don't want to speak too harshly of the general gaming public, but frankly many of the players I've worked with at conventions don't have the capacity to take on new rules and concepts in the way that my circle of friends do. Some of them are only barely aware of ancient history, much less ancients gaming.

I can tell from the few comments that I've already received from this forum that most Pendrakenites are cut from the same cloth as my circle of gamer friends. That said, when I step outside of that circle I am, frankly, shocked by the lack of intelligence I find.  In other words, I am convinced that you and I and my gamer friends are definitely in the minority.  As poorly as I seem to regard the garden-variety common miniature gamer, I should mention that I find him to be a cut above the public at large. 

So, I am with some difficulty, trying to keep Blood of Ancients as absolutely dead simple as possible, while presenting what I think is the important/fun part of an ancients battle.  Contrast this with years ago when I wrote BattlestorM. In BattlestorM, I tried to present a complete game along with scenarios, army lists and more in the core rules.

When I did the convention tour for BattlestorM, I became convinced that the buying public doesn't want a complete game.  They want a simple game and the opportunity to buy more and more and more rules ... until the game becomes so complicated that it's unplayable. When that happens, it's time to release the new "simplified" second edition rules to start the process again.

So, a strict adherence to simplicity in the core rules is one of my bounds.

My experience is also framed by the fact that I play a lot of different tabletop battle games from a lot of eras.  If you read a lot of rules, you end up seeing the same terms used over and over and you end up seeing a lot of permutations of a few gaming conventions. Many times, I've read a ruleset and decided to play a game before I've committed the system to memory and before I fully understand the system. 

From my experience when you don't quite understand a system, what you want is exactly the format I've presented.  Namely, I want a clear and concise explanation of the turn sequence and a glossary and/or index. That's because I'll start playing right out of the book.  If I need to know a rule when I'm playing, it's important to be able to look it up instantly. On the other hand, if I think I know a term, the definition of that term just gets in the way when I'm trying to learn the sequence of play. 

In my experience, so few games provide a glossary (or index) and no one (so far as I know) has used the glossary as I have here.  So, yes that use of the glossary will be jarring (at first) precisely because it's different.

On the other hand, many times when we were playing a new game, play has ground to a halt while one or more players scour the rules for a specific definition. Is that in this section or that?  And, as you may well know, you can't just substitute your own convention or practice for a rule, because that might break the way a particular game plays. 

So here's the skeleton that I've opted for:

  • A concise description of game sequence interspersed with terms denoted with capitalized letters to indicate that more rules might be found in the Glossary.
  • A Glossary with definitions and some core rules
  • A Quick Reference with a summation of all rules

Now, as I type this up, I'm forced to walk through this in my mind and it's caused me to ponder moving the Quick Reference from the rear of the book to the start of the book.  Afterall, when I'm thinking about playing a game, that's what I always read first. 

Adherence to the conventions that have gone before is the opposite of jarring. It's comfortable. On the other hand, maybe the way it always has been done is not the best way to do it.  And there is the crux of the stylistic choice that you've put your finger on and why I am not 100% sure I've made the best choice with my use of the Glossary.

To get very specific, I wrote this sentence: "(Routed Units have more Disruptions than their current Strength.)"  That's a very simple sentence to read ... unless you want to unravel it.   Because every capitalized word in that sentence has a specific reserved meaning in the game. 

Regarding this sentence you write:
QuoteI think routing should have it's own section header, for such an important piece of information I missed it and had to look back. I'd avoid having such vital information in brackets as it makes it seem like a minor aside.

The reason I originally had this sentence in parentheses was because this sentence is an explanatory sentence that belongs in the Glossary according to my own novel stylistic rules. But because I thought this was vital information and that it might be overlooked, I violated my own stylesheet by inserting it here outside the Glossary.  I put it in parentheses to indicate that this sentence is already in the Glossary and thus can be skipped but it shouldn't be skipped because it's important thus it's here ...   

In other words, I'm stuck in a logic loop.  In need to just make a decision.  So, I changed this to read: "As explained in the Glossary, Routed Units are Units that have more Disruptions than their current Strength." 

Take a look at link to your comment to see a perfect great example of where I'm struggling with my own choices.






everwill

Quote-1 it takes more than a move to turn a unit about face 180* (4MP of a 3MP movement rate for foot). Ordering the files to about face and the unit then move off in the opposite direction, albeit with different men at the new front, would be quick.

You know on second read, I realized that this comment is brilliant.  I've played with a lot of picky people and no one has caught this.  I've added a comment here, and when I am able I will change this graphic to reflect your point.

mmcv

Quoteas should any internet information when first introduced.

I think I meant important rather than internet here. Typing on the phone while settling a restless baby are not a great combination!

Regarding the glossary... I do really like it when rules provide a solid rule summary at the end as it is invaluable for being able to look rules up quickly without having to flick through lots of information. I also agree that I like to give the rules a couple of read-throughs then try it out on the table and work out the details as they go rather than having every element clear in their head first. I'll often read the introduction then have a glance at the QRS first to get some context of what I'm reading in the rules, so having the QRS upfront might help, but equally most people expect it at the back and so flip to there instinctively. If ease of understanding is your goal, then perhaps taking a novel approach to presentation is counterproductive? As people will be used to a certain "formula" for how rules go and diverging from that can make it harder to follow for the casual reader.

I'm not at all opposed to new approaches to doing things, but there is maybe a balance to be struck. You could have a really high level overview at the start of the book on the play sequence going through a standard turn/game, then the next bit has the separate sections going into each of those in more detail with one or two lines (maybe as asides) explaining what the Capitalised words mean, then have the larger bit at the end going into more details on each concept word by word. So starting very broad then drilling in deeper with each section. That way people can read as deep or shallow as they wish on first play throughs.

I really can't speak for the broader community as I've not done any conventions or clubs, but I know I find it a little frustrating when a concept is mentioned in passing without any clear indication of what it is or where it is described. Inspiration being one of those as the leader actions seem like quite a key concept to the game mechanics around controlling what happens on the battlefield. It is possible some of this could be solved with how the rules are laid out. You could introduce the concept of a boxed off section on the page to explain some of these concepts a bit more as well as having the summary in the glossary. That way you don't take away from the main flow of the text but have a section on the page explaining a little more about what the term means for those who want it.

I do get where you're coming from with wanting to simplify it as much as possible, but you risk going too far the other way by hiding away a lot of the key concepts so people skim through it and just shrug it off as nothing new. Drawing attention to what makes your rules stand out from the run of the mill ancient set will be an important selling point. To my mind some of the key concepts are around the leader actions, the contested ground/provoking and disorder/routing system, as well as perhaps the use of d10s and the <= result. I think you could take a bit more time to explain and expand on those to help those new gamers grasp the new concepts with more detailed asides and examples of play.

I guess a bigger question is who is your key audience? Casual gamers? Clubs? Tournament players? As that'll influence the approach somewhat. If you want mass appeal I think you need to have a few big ticket concepts that people can talk about as being unique in your system and that pops up in reviews and posts and conversations and videos and really push them. Youtube playthroughs are very useful if you have the resources to do one as can explain a lot more through showing in action.

I may have more thoughts later, just putting this down while on lunch.

everwill

There is a third consideration here, which I didn't mention earlier, primarily because my post was so lengthy to begin with.  As you may be able to tell, these rules have been around for a bit and have had a number of revisions and even at points, based on game play or harsh (but good) criticism, some structural changes. 

The problem is that those changes cause cascading edits. By that I mean you have change the rule, then you have change the rules that are affected by the rule, then you have to change the rules that are changed by those changes.  This causes the poor writer to have to go through the text over and over again.  For example, your comment here was not about what you (or I) first thought it was. 

In a previous iteration of the rules the Morale Phase was a subcomponent of the Melee Phase.  One of my players, a lawyer by trade, wisely suggested that the Morale Phase needs its own phase in the rules.  This was not a change in play, as we were playing that way already, but it wasn't really reflected in the rules.  I added the Morale Phase, but the sentence you commented on was inadvertently left in the Melee Phase of the rules. I moved that sentence and then I couldn't help but expand that text a bit as well. 

If you have a glossary you have all the terms in one place so that when you edit the rule you don't have to search through the document to make edits. That also makes it much harder to leave orphans, artifacts and inconsistencies in the rules. 

But the reason I'm bringing to Pendraken by the way is so I can get outside comments. And your feedback has been invaluable.  For example, I am going to expand and fluff the overview to highlight what makes the game different and to describe the feel of the game.  I'm doing this exactly because of your previous comment.  It's also the reason that I'm moving you up from Advisor to Contributor in the Credits;)

QuoteI guess a bigger question is who is your key audience? Casual gamers? Clubs? Tournament players?

At the risk of offending some, tournament play is of zero interest to me and I don't understand why people do it.  It brings out all those things which I hate most about miniature wargames: pettiness, arguments, competitiveness to the point of breaking the fun in the game. 

I think my target in this book is the average player who goes to a gaming convention.  He may or may not know history or like ancients, but he does like games. He's not interested in a bunch of rules, but he wants to have some agency and some fun. If the game has any legs with those gamers, my goal is to add a lot more rules and flavor. 

For example, I have a lot more information for Ego of Ancients (command and control), but I've stopped editing my supplemental material until I have the base rules in concrete.  It's enough to keep this book in compliance.  It's way too much work to keep all of the supplemental works in compliance with the latest edit. 

sultanbev

QuoteYou know on second read, I realized that this comment is brilliant.  I've played with a lot of picky people and no one has caught this.  I've added a comment here, and when I am able I will change this graphic to reflect your point.

Thanks, it comes from a game where I wasn't allowed to turn round and run off with a block of spearmen facing crossbow armed infantry in rough terrain.
Note that people will use this to "walk backwards" 1MP at a time, by spending 1MP to turn round, move 1MP, then turn around again for another 1MP - which is not necessarily wrong - an ordered fallback if you like - but you have to be certain that is the intention.

everwill

QuoteNote that people will use this to "walk backwards" 1MP at a time, by spending 1MP to turn round, move 1MP, then turn around again for another 1MP - which is not necessarily wrong - an ordered fallback if you like - but you have to be certain that is the intention.

As they should.  I'd love to add you to our contributor list for this little gem, but I'll need to know what name you'd like to use.

sultanbev

QuoteAs they should.  I'd love to add you to our contributor list for this little gem, but I'll need to know what name you'd like to use.

Mark Bevis

Quote
"As for
    Quote
    I'm no longer a fan of players getting to move ALL their units each turn

, you may be a little surprised to know that I agree with you.  Furthermore, I like to roll movement (so you don't know exactly how far a unit will move each turn). "

We've been using a Fire & Fury derivate for Napoleonics & now later 19th century warfare for decades, so rolling for each unit is normal to me. The beauty of the F&F system is that the movement roll is in effect the morale roll. We've taken the combat results from the 2nd edition regimental F&F, and it's working a treat.

I did try writing a set of ancients using the F&F system, with an added overlay card system to generate random who goes next, but allowing multiple activations, which kinda worked, but was a bit meh. Maybe most ancient battles were a bit meh a lot of the time.

Bare in mind we use 1:20 figure ratio in 15mm for 19th century, so an 800 man battalion will have 20 stands, so we like lots of figures in our units. Even with 28mm we use 1 figure = 30 men, so that 800 man battalion would be (rounded down) 24 figures.
I do have a Syrian Saracen army in 20mm plastics at 1:20, with some Egyptians, and on the unfinished shelf is a 12-13th C Georgian army, Seljuks and Mongols, but lack of time, enthusiasm and failing rules sets has put me off finishing it.

And now I want to do it all in 10mm eek!

everwill

BTW, Blood of Ancients only allows you to automatically move all of your units if they are all fresh. Any unit that has taken a disruption hit) must roll a morale check to move closer to the enemy.