CWC-II Army List Errata/Suggestions (Open)

Started by Big Insect, 24 May 2022, 09:54:10 AM

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Big Insect

Please confine your posts to this thread purely to Army list errata or suggestions (there is a separate thread for Rules Errata) - thank you.

There are already a couple of 'known knowns' as far as the existing list errata is concerned.

The more astute of you will have noticed that the 'example' army lists printed in the rule book differ slightly from those in the online downloadable lists.
For example - the printed Soviet list actually runs through to the modern day (when of course the Soviet Union disappeared in the early 1990s). The online Soviet Union list is however restricted to pre-collapse troops and there will be a post Communist Russian Federation list (along with Gulf War lists) in a future online army list release.
Likewise - I had a 'mad moment' with the printed US lists and 'forgot' to put all the Bradley stats into the Armour section  :'( - but these are in the on-line list.
NB: for those of you 'craving' the LAV stats in the US list - there is a separate USMC list about to be launched on-line (along with a Soviet Naval Infantry list) and all the LAV  stats are in that.

As a guide and to be helpful - if you spot an issue with the lists please can you be specific.
It is not helpful (for example) to simply state that "all the Soviet guns are under-powered" ... !!!

It would be helpful if you can state in which list and with which unit(s) there is an issue (or an omission), and why and even a suggested change, that would be really very helpful.

Continuity can also be an issue across lists - sometime this may be deliberate - e.g. a lower range or AP/AT state for a Soviet 'client-state' operating a particular MBT might justifiably reflect a lower spec to an export model or poor crew training or a change in tactical deployment. Or it could simply be a typing error on my part (I am after all only human  :o ).

Again, because the majority of the lists are on-line now, it is going to be a lot easier to make adjustments and tweaks, but my intention is to try and do that in batches - to avoid the constant 'drip-drip-drip' effect of real-time updating. 

I know that I cannot please all the players all the time, and my knowledge of such a broad subject matter will never be as thorough or detailed as those of you that specialise in a particular army or conflict, so I do rely upon your active engagement and involvement in these lists.

Many thanks (in anticipation)

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

flamingpig0

24 May 2022, 10:07:48 AM #1 Last Edit: 24 May 2022, 10:22:08 AM by flamingpig0
Should the Chinese Type 59 really be only 45 pts in the - Warsaw Pact, Grade 2 list?

This looks like a cut and paste typo from the NVA list
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

Big Insect

Thanks you - I will check that out

The main Chinese list is well underway and I will cross-check with that as well.

Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

sultanbev

Having had a quick look through the lists, these jump out at me:

You've missed the HEAT round off the 82mm 2B9 Vasilek
On the British & US List you have M24 with a HEAT round.... It should be the same as the Churchill 3/80 3/60 surely?
Cromwell VII - why the improved gun stats? It didn't get any better ammo or sights postwar that I've heard of.
A lot of the LAWs have ridiculously long ranges,
eg RPG-18 out to 1000m (50cm) ! 200m actual
66mm LAW out to 800m (40cm) 300m actual
LAW80 out to 1200m (60cm) 500m actual

Something has gone wrong there with the LAWs in most of the lists.


Vickers Vigilant was in use to 1977 with Paras
Vickers Vigilant range is 1370m = 68cm, not 185cm
Under transport can add Ram Kangeroo to 1956
Under anti-tank can add Archer out to 1956
Churchill ARK should be AVLB, not sure if the ARK was used postwar?
Under British Recce:
Still promoting the myth of no 2pdr HE on the Daimler II armoured car - stop it! And it did have a coax MG afterall.
Also add Daimler II with Littlejohn adaptor up to 1960
Can add AEC MK.III up to 1958

In the American lists the M24 Chaffee under recce has different gun stats to the one in the armour section, neither seem consistent and it certainly was never issued a 75mm HEAT round, although prototypes were made in WW2.

What happens to "non-dedicated" AA such as Soviet 85mm, 100mm, 130mm, US 90mm, UK 3.7" and area SAMS such as Sa-5, Thunderbird, HAWK - are they abstracted?

Some of the on-table artillery are missing their anti-tank ammunition. Although, it could be said, they'd only have tyically 6 anti-rounds in an SPG, so understandable if you leave them out. Examples Abbot 105mm HESH, Russian 130mm M46 APHE, 122mm D30 HEAT.

The 125mm Sprut towed anti-tank gun never saw service by the way.

Mark

Big Insect

A Type 56 should in effect be the same at RPG-2 (in game terms).

Both should be the same points (15pts) and both should have the same stats (AP: 3/10 |AT:3/10H)

I'll do a check across all the appropriate lists and adjust (45pts is a typo)  :o

Thanks
Mark

'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Couple of errors there Mark - only use of Vigilent by the British was on Ferrets in Recce squardrons. All infantry had in theroy a GW platoon from 1970? but never instigated. I suspect that is where you are getting the Para use. If you insist pictorial evidence please. Paras had either Malkara/Hornet or Ferret 5 with Swingfire.

Shoulder fired ATGL do have very long ranges but tactical use is not to use them. 2 reasons, they are not very accurate above 750 m and there will always be a limited ammunitrion supply so most rounds will be heat even though a Charlie G for example has HEAT, HE, Smoke and may be canister. It's a matter of loading, No 1 has the gun and 1 round loaded + personal kit and weapon. Officially that was a Sterling but observation seems to show that it would be an SLR. The load is of the order of 60 kg.

You are correct that the 2pdr has HE but as the only vehicles fitted witrh it are recce they won't be firing very often. You could always use it as 1/40 - it's not an auto cannon and has 2-3oz of HE in it. Any source for the Littlejohn use ?

Finally have you got any info on 2nd Light Infantry in 1974/5 in Germany. Freind was attached for a short time and wants to recreate it if possible but has lost his photos.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Big Insect

QuoteHaving had a quick look through the lists, these jump out at me:

You've missed the HEAT round off the 82mm 2B9 Vasilek
On the British & US List you have M24 with a HEAT round.... It should be the same as the Churchill 3/80 3/60 surely?
Cromwell VII - why the improved gun stats? It didn't get any better ammo or sights postwar that I've heard of.
A lot of the LAWs have ridiculously long ranges,
eg RPG-18 out to 1000m (50cm) ! 200m actual
66mm LAW out to 800m (40cm) 300m actual
LAW80 out to 1200m (60cm) 500m actual

Something has gone wrong there with the LAWs in most of the lists.


Vickers Vigilant was in use to 1977 with Paras
Vickers Vigilant range is 1370m = 68cm, not 185cm
Under transport can add Ram Kangeroo to 1956
Under anti-tank can add Archer out to 1956
Churchill ARK should be AVLB, not sure if the ARK was used postwar?
Under British Recce:
Still promoting the myth of no 2pdr HE on the Daimler II armoured car - stop it! And it did have a coax MG afterall.
Also add Daimler II with Littlejohn adaptor up to 1960
Can add AEC MK.III up to 1958

In the American lists the M24 Chaffee under recce has different gun stats to the one in the armour section, neither seem consistent and it certainly was never issued a 75mm HEAT round, although prototypes were made in WW2.

What happens to "non-dedicated" AA such as Soviet 85mm, 100mm, 130mm, US 90mm, UK 3.7" and area SAMS such as Sa-5, Thunderbird, HAWK - are they abstracted?

Some of the on-table artillery are missing their anti-tank ammunition. Although, it could be said, they'd only have tyically 6 anti-rounds in an SPG, so understandable if you leave them out. Examples Abbot 105mm HESH, Russian 130mm M46 APHE, 122mm D30 HEAT.

The 125mm Sprut towed anti-tank gun never saw service by the way.

Mark

Thanks Mark
All extremely helpful as always - I'll look at the continuity issues across the lists as a priority.

I agree about the LAW factors - I had a bit of a technical 'issue' with the IATW and the RR/RCL factors/ranges.
I'll double check those.
NB: There was a theory put forward that we didn't need the longer AT ranges or the 'H' designation now that we had a separate AT stats line - but that didn't take into account the fact that you can shoot at field defences and needed to use the AT stats to represent that.

As always - I appreciate the input from a specialist like yourself.
On things like the "add Daimler II with Littlejohn adaptor up to 1960" suggestion (for example) - can you offer a proposed change to the standard Daimler II please? Much appreciated.

BR
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Big Insect

M24 Light Tank (Chaffee) stats should all be: AP: 3/100 | AT: 2/90

I think that I might have mixed them up with the 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 stats. But I'll get that change on the list to sort out.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

flamingpig0


I think the AP factor for M1Abrams and IPM1 Abrams looks suspect 1/100
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 24 May 2022, 01:11:23 PMI think the AP factor for M1Abrams and IPM1 Abrams looks suspect 1/100

No the Yanks had lousey ammo  :d

Seriously - OT-65 missing form 1st Line Warpact, Checz possibly Poles. It's the FUG from 2ndline list with an 82mm RCL added and Recce only.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Big Insect

Quote from: flamingpig0 on 24 May 2022, 01:11:23 PMI think the AP factor for M1Abrams and IPM1 Abrams looks suspect 1/100

Good spot - both should be 3/175

Thanks
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

flamingpig0

The M60A1 RISE(P) Combat Tank and the M48A5 Patton appear to be identical but are of differing points.
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

flamingpig0

On the Soviet List should the conscripts and good conscripts both be compulsory?


( we do appreciate you doing these lists Mr B Insect)
"I like coffee exceedingly..."
 H.P. Lovecraft

"We don't want your stupid tanks!"
Salah Askar,

Superscribe

In the Infantry Support Weapons rules on p49 it states that small calibre mortars (below 100mm/4") can only cause suppression v hard targets and they have * in the army list to denote this. 

The 4.2" mortar in British Army List also has *
Is this an error?

Chris