CWC-II Rules Errata (Open)

Started by Big Insect, 24 May 2022, 09:29:44 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

sultanbev

QuoteI am thinking of planning an all day game river assault scenario next month, with a wide river (30cm wide)

30cm = 600m, so given the data I posted about, it would take around 5 hours to build a pontoon bridge across that, using a battalion's worth of men, so about 9 stands

Most amphbious AFV and ferries do about 10kmh in water, so whatever the slowest vehicle is in the data charts, use that as the speed in water. A quick view of a few lists show 15cm as the slowest AFV.
Assault boats that outboard motors can do around 30kmh, so perhaps 30cm, but they can only carry foot troops and heavy weapons like MMG, recoiless rifles, ATGW teams.

Snorkelling tanks -
"Naturally, there are qualifiers to using a tank snorkel. The river depth at the crossing site cannot exceed five meters. The river bottom has to be suitable (sand, pebbles) so the tank will not get stuck; the river cannot be more than a kilometer in width; and the current has to be two meters/second or less. The entry and exit banks cannot exceed 25 degrees and the river bottom slope cannot exceed 15 degrees.7"

https://www.benning.army.mil/armor/earmor/content/issues/2019/Fall/4Grau19.pdf
How that fits into the game setting I'm not sure, but shows the route has to be thoroughly pre-checked out by engineer-recce units beforehand, so no snorkelling across a contested river battle.
More info here:
https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/engineer-river.htm

I suspect snorkelling speed to be even slower than amphibious vehicles.

Quote from: Superscribe on 05 August 2022, 11:52:41 PMIf 3x bridgelaying sapper units are used to build one pontoon bridge can they combine their efforts and build the bridge at a revised rate of 3 x 5cm = 15cm/Initiative Phase?
The answer should be no I would have thought, unless you are operating from both sides of the river at the same time.


Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Chris on snorkeling tanks it is now though that it was not a battlefeild tactic. Preparation would take about an hour, removal at least 20 mins on exit.

Ferries - order or initative move to load, order to move, not anticipating Mark but sugesst infantry pace and measure from near bank.

Amphips - order to entre, order to move, again I'd use infantry speed (experiance swimming 432 and Stalwart) and order to leave.

Assault boats, depends on powered or not - we used 30HP outboards so say 20cm per move, rowed would be infantry pace again. Also order to board, order to disembark.

AFV bridgelayer initaive order to lay and may be used on same turn.

The timings Mark B has given are not for tactical bridges, would only be built once you had secured both banks.

Final note all armies hate assault river crossings as costly and complex operations.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Big Insect

QuoteHi Mark

I am thinking of planning an all day game river assault scenario next month, with a wide river (30cm wide) but have a few questions as I cant find the answers in the rules (if the info is missing then it may need to be added to the rules and to unit stats tables).

What speed do the following move across a river:

- vehicles with the amphibious special ability, such as BMPs/BRDMs?
> 10cm (Amphibious) in water or wetlands
- assault boats  (and assume they are Transport (1) - limited to infantry or engineer unit)?
> 30cm (Aquatic capability) - can only carry 1 x INF: designated unit - there are some stats in the US Vietnam list, but the (about to be published) Iranian & Iraqi list have not only assault boats but also hover-crafts (as does the Soviet Naval Infantry list)
- ferries carrying vehicles?
> 10cms - most military ferry units will not move that quickly over a short distance like 30cm
- snorkelling tanks?
> 5cm but Sultanbey's comments are correct - it is highly unlikely you'd be using snorkelling in an active hostile battlefield situation. Snorkelling is a good way to get armoured units across a river in your rear area, where bridges might not be strong enough to take their weight, but they would be very vulnerable in a close combat situation. I have used snorkelling Leopard IIs in a game, but it was vanity really, as I had the models available  :D  ... in practice it would have taken far to long to prepare them to make the river crossing

It is understood that all targets in water are classed as being in the open, but does the water affect the enemy's chance to hit targets while crossing water?
> Yes, target are classified as being one profile less - so Average becomes Low. Most units cannot shoot when they are in Amphibious mode - unless they are specifically designed as amphibious assault vehicles.

If the Bridgelayer special ability is given to a Sapper unit (at cost of 5pts, as page 91) they then have the ability to lay 5cm of bridge per Initiative Phase.  If 3x bridgelaying sapper units are used to build one pontoon bridge can they combine their efforts and build the bridge at a revised rate of 3 x 5cm = 15cm/Initiative Phase?

> Itheriol's comments are a good example of the challenge here. I'd suggest you could have 2 Sapper units, one on each bank, working towards each other, but any more than that wouldn't work practically.

Regards

Chris

Answers in-line in bold above Chris.
Cheers
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

First off comments were by me, not Mark Bevis. Times on bridge building did it on an annual camp, both MGB and Bailey. could construct both in 3 hours, bailey taking much longer. We were using around 15 bodies for each and working from one side and it was a dry obsticle.

Snokeling tanks is much harder than it seems at first glance. Apart from the preparation time the river bed would often need prparation removing bolders etc. Then the entry and exit points need grading to ensure the slope isn't too steep. The tank has virtually no vision so keeping a straight line is very hard. Finally the vehicle will have limited traction as it has some bouyancy which means it's hard to steer.
FOG IN CHANNEL - EUROPE CUT OFF
Lord Kermit of Birkenhead
Muppet of the year 2019, 2020 and 2021

Superscribe

Hi

Thanks for all the useful info and feedback about bridging etc. Noted about snorkelling tanks and building a pontoon bridge will be very difficult initially, until Soviets have created a bridgehead and engineers can then work from both banks.

Amphibious vehicles such as IFV with infantry on board will plainly be important.

The Soviets will have the Divisional Engineer Battalion with its pontoon bridging company, which besides being able to build a bridge, they can also build 3x 110 ton ferries, which enables them a simultaneous lift of nine medium tanks (three platoons). So, in CWC this would equate to a single 110 ton ferry able to carry a company of 3 tanks.  3x T-64 nose to tail need minimum length of 15cm of ferry to transport them. How many Initiative Phases would it take the engineer company to build this raft? Would it be 3 turns (3x 5cm)?

Once loaded with tanks the raft moving at 10cm would reach the opposite bank in 2 successful command throws and then tanks can exit the ferry on the 3rd successful command throw. Does that sound about right?

Superscribe

Quote from: Big Insect on 05 August 2022, 11:42:20 AMMine plows are Mine clearance A - so they clear 5cm x 5cm sections in an Initiative move
Hi Mark

Sorry to continue the debate.  The Minefield Clearance para on p68 says that 'mine clearing vehicles' can clear minefields at 5cm x 10cm rate. Doesnt a tank with plough fitted qualify as such a vehicle, rather than sappers on foot?  As I understand it tanks can plough at an average rate of 5kph and with a game turn in CWC2 of 30 mins that equates to 2.5kph in 30 mins, which suggests they should be able to clear more than 5cm in a turn.

If however this is incorrect can I suggest the para on p68 be amended to say '......engineers on foot and tanks with mine ploughs fitted'

Regards
Chris

Big Insect

Quote from: Superscribe on 07 August 2022, 09:09:50 AMHi Mark

Sorry to continue the debate.  The Minefield Clearance para on p68 says that 'mine clearing vehicles' can clear minefields at 5cm x 10cm rate. Doesnt a tank with plough fitted qualify as such a vehicle, rather than sappers on foot?  As I understand it tanks can plough at an average rate of 5kph and with a game turn in CWC2 of 30 mins that equates to 2.5kph in 30 mins, which suggests they should be able to clear more than 5cm in a turn.

If however this is incorrect can I suggest the para on p68 be amended to say '......engineers on foot and tanks with mine ploughs fitted'

Regards
Chris

The rules are that mine-clearance vehicles (unless they are specialist units that use things like rocket assisted clearance) clear mines at 5cm x 5cm per initiative action Chris.

As stated earlier (above) some of the more recent list versions & newer lists have the option to buy MBTs with mine-plows/flails in the Engineering section, with the 5cm x 5cm Mineclearer A, designation.

I've deliberately kept the rules for Mineclearance as simple as possible - just 2 types.
The 5cm x 5cm designation for MBTs with mine-ploughs etc. is, in my view, adequate to reflect how they worked in practice and what works best in a game play context.

Thanks
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Superscribe

Quote from: Big Insect on 07 August 2022, 10:22:53 PMThe rules are that mine-clearance vehicles (unless they are specialist units that use things like rocket assisted clearance) clear mines at 5cm x 5cm per initiative action Chris.

As stated earlier (above) some of the more recent list versions & newer lists have the option to buy MBTs with mine-plows/flails in the Engineering section, with the 5cm x 5cm Mineclearer A, designation.

I've deliberately kept the rules for Mineclearance as simple as possible - just 2 types.
The 5cm x 5cm designation for MBTs with mine-ploughs etc. is, in my view, adequate to reflect how they worked in practice and what works best in a game play context.
Hi Mark
No prob - many thanks
Rgds
Chris