Austrian skirmisher suggestions

[rangerdad]

I'm building an Austrian/Hungarian 1809'ish force, looking to add a skirmish base to each battalion but struggling to find poses other than standing firing - am I missing something or can someone point me in the right direction please ?

[steve_holmes_11]

I am not well up on Napoleonic Austrians, so am going by the photographs in the catalogue.

Do you think that NPA 30 "Archduke Charles Legion" would mix with line fusiliers.
They have an additional pose.
 

[rangerdad]

It's somewhat confusing, but I suppose it depends if their shako is similar enough to Hungarians to pass with a paint job ?

[Zippee]

Not really - the EKL and Grenz can mix and match reasonably well with a bit of plume surgery and gaiter shaving but there is a distinct difference between their klobuk and the fusilier shako.

And none of that helps with helmeted German infantry. And don't even ask about skirmishers for landwher.

Even the Jager only have kneeling and standing firing.

The range definitely needs a bit of padding - shako'd German and helmeted Hungarian fusiliers and some improved skirmishing poses

Some pics that may help


All my skirmish markers are the standing firing option

Austrian Fusiliers 1809 - 19th IR Alvintzy, Battalion II 03 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr


Austrian Fusiliers 1809 - 7th IR Schroder, Battalion I 02 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr


Austrian Grenz 1809 - 12th Deutsches-Banater, Battalion II 01 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr


Austrian Erzherzog Karl Legion 1809 - 1st Battalion 03 by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr

[rangerdad]

Cheers Zippee - that would be a no then    back to the drawing board

Lovely painting on those figures btw 

Were the Austrian (Hungarian worn) shakos unique in style ?

[Zippee]

Thanks

The Austrian shako was somewhat unique - widening to the top with pronounced front and rear peaks. The same shako was issued to all fusiliers, its just the Hungarians are recorded as getting them first, although 1809 was probably a mix of both styles regiment by regiment. If you ignore the rear peak they are not that dissimilar to the French shako in outline at this scale - but that doesn't help because French coats really do not work at all well as Austrian coats.

The grenzer klobuk is a straight or narrowing cylinder, similar to a mirlton in profile (without the wrap) and no peak. It appears that the EKL wore the same or something very similar but not the fusilier shako in any case. Front peaks began to be attached at some point, possibly from 1809.

[John Cook]

I agree, skirmishing types are a bit patchy across the Napoleonic range.  The French could do with some too.  They also only have a standing firing figure.  I've been using the NB2 Dutch firing line for French skirmishers, removing the rear peak and adding tails, which is a practical proposition for small numbers of skirmishers but I'd rather not have to. 
What the French need, and the Austrians apparently, is a figure standing at the ready to go with the standing firing figure.  Skirmishing was a much more formal business than it is generally portrayed.  The skirmish line comprised two ranks and skirmishers operated in files of two men with one covering the one firing.  The idea was that one man would always have a loaded musket.  They stood to fire, so kneeling figures aren't really necessary.  Loading figures would be nice though.

[John Cook]

Why have I got two versions of each picture?  I just hate tech sometimes.

[Zippee]

Loading figures are woefully lacking in most ranges unfortunately. We have two poses of marching in the 'march attack' pack - the accompanying standard pack should really be 'firing line' one figure loading, one figure firing.

Agreed skirmishing was a formal affair of pairs - one ready and one loading. Kneeling is very over represented in wargame figures IMO. Of course most skirmishers were actually standing formed between the main body and the skirmish line but most rules don't have that level of granularity

[John Cook]

Perhaps they can be expanded in the fullness of time. 
You are right about skirmishing and rules.  The usual deployment was in three elements, sometimes two, a skirmish firing line, formed supports and a reserve.  The Austrians, for example, took their skirmishers from the third rank and formed 12 skirmish platoons from it, only three of which were actually committed to the skirmish line itself.  Three provided the support and six provided a reserve at about 100 paces between each element.
So, only a proportion of troops deployed to skirmish should form the skirmish line. 
It is roughly the same with the Prussians who also found their skirmishers from the third rank, even in 1806 and earlier.  By 1809 they had already published a separate instruction on the use of the the third rank, by which time it had stopped being used for firing in common with other countries, the French since at least about 1790. This is something else that wargames rules don't reflect very well.

[rangerdad]

"The French could do with some too" -  Ha, that was my first recourse after Zippee's tip-off earlier, but sadly none there either

How about NBW2 (Brunswick) as a proxy for Austrians in shako ?
Maybe Bavarians or Wurtemburgers for Austrians in helmet ?

On the French skirmish pose question, Old Glory make a pack of fifty multi-pose skirmishers but sadly no photos

[Westmarcher]

Magister Militum's Austrians in Shako or Helmet - Firing option includes loading figures.

Austrian Naps

[Zippee]

I think you'll see a significant difference in helmets between Bavarians/Wurttembergers and Austrians.


19 DIV II - 3rd Leichtes (close order) by Zippee Jerred, on Flickr

Don't know how well the MM stack against PD but as skirmishers they would be on separate stands, so as long as they're not vastly different in size should be a useful solution.

[John Cook]

I've got MM British and French armies, including skirmishers, for a Maida project I did years ago and I wouldn't mix them with Pendraken, they are taller and stockier figures, but that is my preference, for others it might not matter.

[rangerdad]

I agree John, good figures (I intend using them for an Austrian combined grenadier battalion or two) but not in the same unit

Looks like Bavarians are the least worst

At a show years ago I picked up a bag of OG Austrian skirmishing jagers that have a variety of poses, but apparently they operated as a unit in their own right and not as attached companies. I've asked Leon for some proxy samples, if they're too far off then I might just ignore historical accuracy