1809 Bavarians

[Stewart.gibson]

[/quote]

Cornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago 

Ouch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.

[Westmarcher]

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?

I personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.

I painted my Bavarian contingent in light blue only to discover later that it was more of a mid-blue - someone, somewhere has sent many of us down the wrong path. When I started painting my French, I used Humbrol French Blue - again, wrong. As it turns out French uniforms were very dark (sure, the sun will fade this but not 'uniformly' so areas under armpits and knapsacks etc. will fade at a different rate). Apart from flags and the direction your troops are facing, your tabletop French will most likely have white breeches and your Prussians, grey (btw, I also paint the underneath of the bases a different colour for all of my figures, regardless of era, to help me quickly identify armies and individual units when storing them in the box after a game). 

How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate? One way for the French is to examine paintings painted by contemporary artists, i.e., guys who witnessed the real thing (and some of whom who actually served). Some will say that these paintings will have darkened over the years but many if not all have since been 'cleaned up' (i.e., restored). Here's a list of various artists' works to start your research off:-

Jacques-Louis David, Auguste Couder, F. Bouchot, Emile Jean Horacle Vernet, Antoine-Jean Gros, Jean-Baptiste Debret, etc.

Napoleon in his Study

Various French Napoleonic Artists

There's also Francois Gerard and Claude Gautherot.
 

[Zippee]

Ouch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.

No 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned

[Stewart.gibson]

No 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned

Understood, when it comes to uniform colours this is all tongue in cheek anyways. We are painting toy soldiers after all and we could paint the figures any colour we like and create an imagination.  My 18th century imagination is located in a southern French wine region.  They use bad table wines as a source of dyes for their uniforms. 

[Stewart.gibson]

I personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.

A warm hello to a fellow Scot. 

I struggle with painting and confess that, for me, getting figures on the table is my only goal. Your suggestion of examining period art is a good one, I had not thought of it. The research you do is really challenging.  Not much attention is paid to uniform details. 

Modern writers have worked to create a body of knowledge to support miniatures gamers. I have MAA 106, Bavarians from Osprey. Written by Otto von Pivka, I have yet to find any reference to a jacket colour in his uniform descriptions.  Breeches, facings, helmets, company designations, button colours, lace, all there.  Nothing on jacket colours.  There are 4 photos of tunics, all black and white images. 
There are also many period uniform plates but I find them overpriced and difficult to obtain. But then again, as uniforms are not a key interest beyond the perfunctory I really don't spend much time looking. Unfortunately, as I am finding out, the sources that are readily available often contain easily verifiable errors. 

I equate your focus on unis with my desire to understand and replicate combat and maneuver on the battlefield.  In reality I am striving to find a better model of what transpired daily on the battlefields of Europe. I need all the help I can get with uniforms...

[sultanbev]

Re French fanions, I was thinking of the battalion flags used by the 2nd-5th battalions of a regiment, not the company ones, can't help you with that one.
For my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag

Halberd pennants were:
1st Bttn: blue-red-blue horizontal
2nd Bttn: red-blue-red horizontal
3rd Bttn: red-blue-red-blue-red horizontal
4th Bttn: red/blue vertical
5th & 6th Bttns: ?

That aside all my Prussians, Brits in blue, French, Persians, whatever, in any scale, are all done in Miniature Paints MP23 Royal Blue. I don't bother with such pedantery for differing shade of blue colours. 200 years after the event, how can we really know?
I always say my soldiers are painted to win battles, not painting competitions. None of my customers have ever complained. Get 'em painted, get 'em based, get them on the table rolling dice from massed volleys shredding your opponents. Job done
Here is the French 56th Regiment for June 1812 at 1:10 and guns 1:2 (haven't done the flags yet and battaion gun limber)


Have never painted Bavarians but if I did I'd use a home brew mid-blue I made to make US 1812 backpacks.

Mark

[Stewart.gibson]

For my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag

OK, Thanks for the info.  The reason I asked about company fanions is because I had understood, wrongly?, that battalions all carried colours.  2nd, 3rd etc having returned their eagles in 1808??? but they still carried colours with the battalion embroidered on the flag.   


When did that change? 

Stu

[Zippee]

I may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .

[Stewart.gibson]

I may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .

That makes perfect sense.  Trying to find your company(peloton) on a chaotic battlefield would be a challenge. Doctrine would help as companies formed in a specific order so if you have found the white flag then the green flag should be somewhere to the right.  Having gone looking for a specific platoon with a battalion forming on the parade square, I understand the issue.  Fortunately, the promenading officers were not shooting at us

This is one of the dynamics of the battlefield that I find intriguing.  Not interested in wheeling, marching, the intricacies of forming square from line, or column etc.  How did units reform after a failed attack, where did that happen?  How did troops know where to reform.  600 guys retiring from a position, under fire, hoping that enemy cavalry does not find them, have loads on their minds.  Yet histroies are replete with units retiring and reforming to defend or to renew the attack.  Yes, officers utilized the flat of sword method, sergeants just provided a stern look punctuated by epithets.  But units responded.    More research...

[sultanbev]

Not sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough" would be expected to before running out of impeteous, or how much space a unit usually retires from combat before it is able to rally. Or perhaps, the distance that a second line has time to open ranks to let the routing/falling back battalion through and redress the line to meet the enemy breakthrough with a crushing initial volley.

(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).

Mark

[Stewart.gibson]

Not sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough"

(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).

Mark

In my reading or 18th century rules I have seen that commanders were concerned about support distance between lines.  That distance increased as mobility and weapons ranges improved, so Wellington's 300 yards is would seem about right for the period.  Also,  I would imagine that 300 yeads in Western Europe likely provided for some form of cover. Good thought babout opening the lines to let fugitives through.  Several rule sets allow retiring units falling back to rally behind supports, but obviously those supports provide a perceived measure of safety.

Stu

[Gwydion]

Have a read of this:

Supports and Passage of lines
There is some reference to the intricacies of forming lines but it helps explain why troops were drawn up as they were and how they were drawn up. Most games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.

I'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.

[sultanbev]

Most games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.

Interesting. We allow passage of lines with a 3" deduction of movement, 6" for cavalry. (line speeds being 9" and 24" respectively). So as long as everyone is in the open and in order, it is maneagable, as long as you have space on the other side of the unit being passed through. BUT, if one unit is disordered, or the units are in rough terrain and not trained skirmishers, or one is green, then both units become disordered.

Our rules are based on the 2nd edition Regimental F&F converted to use for Napoleonics and colonial, with 1:20 figure ratio.

[Stewart.gibson]

I'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.

Im reminded of my own evolutions on the drill square.  I understand it is not the same thing but the principle is the same.  Bodies of troops are being moved to preform specific tasks in specific places using a preordained set of commands.  Add enemy fire, units of differing sizes, officers guesstimating when and when to halt their piece of the puzzle and, in all likely hood an incomplete understanding of what the puzzle looks like.

That can result in total chaos on a parade square. I know frustrated RSM's have been known on more than one occasion to pass the order "Get the F@&#k! off of MY parade square". I'm sure there are French/Russiaan/Prussian/Austrian napoleonic equivalents.

 Now corners will be cut, troops will be pleasantly encouraged by their NCO's to move a bit more quickly enroute to over there by Captain so and so.  If they are any good they will find their companies and dress their ranks as professional soldiers.  Otherwise they could take a good deal of time to sort themselves out.

Most rules do not consider supports and combat results do not provide enough pushback/repulse results  and then do not require fresh units to come forward to continue the attack or protect those falling back. 

Stu

[John Cook]

Stewart, you asked about the use of fanions by the French infantry and when they were introduced.  The number of eagles was reduced to one per regiment by the Decree of December 1811.  Article 9 stated that the eagle was to be carried by the 1st Battalion with the remaining battalions having fanions "without inscription and to which no importance will be attached, nor any honors rendered".  Article 10 described the fanions as white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th and yellow for the 6th battalion.  They were carried on a plain staff with a spear point finial.

You also asked about the Bavarian army uniform and colours.  I don't know where 'cornflower blue' comes from because all my German sources talk about 'hellblau', or light-blue which, judging from artefacts in the Bavarian Army Museum, Ingolstadt, is actually closer to a mid-blue, like Vallejo Medium Blue 70-963.  Light-blue and white are the national colours of Bavaria. 

The Bavarian Army 1806-1813 by Peter Bunde, Markus Gaertner and Markus Stein, published by Zeughausverlag GmbH, Berlin, 2018 is worth a look.  It has a comprehensive text and is illustrated with photos and images of various artefacts and uniforms.  The authors know their stuff and it is about the best there is for the money.  The English translation can be had for about £25 from the usual outlets. 

Cantler's 'Der Bayerische Armee 1800 -1873' is also useful in this context.  Here is a link to it.

https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/Bavaria/Cantler/c_cantler.html

Hekkel's 'Trophies of the Wars of 1812-1813-1814 kept in the Kazan Cathedral' cover all the trophies taken by the Russians, including Bavarian ones, that were displayed in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Kazan in St Petersberg, in 1909.  Most have long since disappeared but they were illustrated in colour in Hekkel's work.  The Bavarian infantry colours are at pages 165-173.  This is the link to it.

Трофеи войн 1812-1813-1814 г., хранящиеся в Казанском соборе / - Геккель, Александр Иванович (1845-1908) - Cистема онлайн-просмотра (rusneb.ru)

Staffs appear to be plain wood which is how Rigondaud shows them in his Le Plumet Serie D plates on colours and standards, albeit influenced at least in part by Hekkel, and how Bunde et al describe them.