1809 Bavarians

[fsn]

... and Wise says "all flags issued before 1813 were carried on staves with a light blue covering: flags in 1813 had staves covered in black leather".

 

[fsn]

My reading of Bavarian flags post 1809 is that nobody is sure who carried what. 

I used both the Pendraken sets for my 1813 force.   

[fsn]

Here's my Bavarian offering. Based on the 1813 Hanau force - with brown flag staffs.
10 Bttns, 4 rgt cav, 4 bttys, staff and markers* at the back.

My interpretation of Cornflower blue is rather a pale blue-grey rather than a pale blue. Vallejo Pastel Blue 70.901





*I use red, yellow and green figures to show morale states.

[Stewart.gibson]

Cool looking army.

I suspect that transitioning from one set of standards to another was not a simple process and likely took some time, perhaps several years. So I suspect that your approach is valid. One issue is identifying regiments from the commander's helicopter.  A single facing colour stripe in a 10mm collar is difficult to see. I was thinking of perhaps using flagpoles in facing colours but started painting brown as that seemed more likely.

My Bavarians, like Zippees' are based on the Bavarian OB at the start of the 1809 campaign.  But it is early days and I am a LONG way away from completed units.  I painted my flagpoles Coat D'armes 218 Wood Brown and my "cornflower" is Vallejo Andrea Blue (841) I had the Andrea Blue to hand and figured it was as good as any other pale blue colour. I do want to make sure that Bavarian Blue, French Blue and Prussian Blue are visibly different on the table.

I like your marker idea. Did you use regular rank and file figures? 

Also, did you create any skirmisher bases?

Stu

[Zippee]

I painted my flagpoles Coat D'armes 218 Wood Brown and my "cornflower" is Vallejo Andrea Blue (841) I had the Andrea Blue to hand and figured it was as good as any other pale blue colour. I do want to make sure that Bavarian Blue, French Blue and Prussian Blue are visibly different on the table.

Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks

[paulr]

One option for identifying units can be to use colour codes on the vertival back of the bases, this can be fairly discreate

I use labels that carry the key stats for the units as well as identifying them. But that is because our group plays a lot of different rule sets and not everyone can identify units based on their uniform

[Stewart.gibson]

Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks

I found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening.  Can we trust Flag colours?  The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.

Are the two colours related?

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?
4. Where did "cornflower blue" come from. 

How many war-gamers have had the debate?  I suggest pints at 6 feet are the only way that this will be resolved!

PAINT BRUSHES DOWN! Back to the time machine design!

[Rhys]

I'll approach this from a chemistry point of view.
French blue is indigo so a natural dye. This is a much darker colour than you might think with surviving examples a very dark blue after 200 years. Prussian blue was probably the first known synthetic dye and again is a very dark blue (and was known for 100 years before the Napoleonic wars). I'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table. I've used Tamiya dark sea grey for both as its very dark and has a blue tinge.. For the Bavarians I think the issue is probably going to be the dye fading, either due to the dye used or the dying process itself. I've used Tamiya sky blue though I think any mid blue would be OK.

[fsn]

I like your marker idea. Did you use regular rank and file figures? 

Doesn't really matter, I use a mix. They appear as single figures tagging behind the unit. They just happen to wear red, yellow or green coats. 

Also, did you create any skirmisher bases?

Yup. I'm based on 30x30mm, 9 figures (for Nobby's Napoleonic Rules), but light units are 30x10mm 3 figures. For light bttns I do keep some 30x20mm, 6 figure bases.

Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks

It looks cool on my table - so sue me!    I wanted them to stand out from the Wurttembergers that I have painted and the Poles that are to come ... and the Prussians.

And if I ever get round to doing French.

[fsn]

If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table.  Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms?  The French used "indigo" pigments iirc. 

[Stewart.gibson]

the Poles that are to come

I forgot the Poles!  I think I need mores shades of blue.  Orrrrrr. I need to start with a far lighter shade for the Bavarians

[Stewart.gibson]

Re fanions, do you mean the French ones

Mark

Missed this response. Question, colour of the Blue corduroy?  Careful this is a loaded topic...

Yes I did mean French Fanions.  If I understand correctly they were used as company identifiers, but I have no idea how they were used.

Stu

[DecemDave]

I'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table.

Not just on t'table: In the film "Waterloo" there is a scene where they can't make out if the new arrivals are French or Prussian. Presumably based on some memoir?  I believe there were Napoleonic "friendly fire" incidents. Likewise the "who is it?"  problem with D'Erlon at Ligny.  So even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started.  And how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?

[Zippee]

I found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening.  Can we trust Flag colours?  The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.

Are the two colours related?

Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.

It seems clear that previous Bavarian uniforms were a paler blue (ignoring Rumford for a moment) and that seems true of later uniforms (from what I understand. For certain cornflower blue is the colour associated with Bavaria.

Cornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago 

Given that, I don't think we can really say with any certainty that flag colour and 'Bavarian national colour' and uniform colour need match or be one with each other. I'd veer to the flags being the traditional cornflower.

Quite why the uniform coats of 1800 and 1806 and 1814 appear to be a distinctly darker shade of blue than we would expect is a mystery but the ones in the museums certainty are. Maybe that's time and chemicals, maybe they misread the dye mixing instructions and stuck with it, no idea. I've seen nothing to indicate it was deliberate - every statement I've seen alludes to 'traditional Bavarian cornflower' - only it ain't.

[Stewart.gibson]

And how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?

Even modern uniforms fade with field use. I believed the materials industry coined the term colour fast.  Meaning looses its original colour fast. But please, my pedantry makes this challenging enough without needing 4-5 shades of "cornflower" blue.  This years recruits in one shade and the old salts in progressively faded versions of the same shade.  Hmmm...have we hit on a way to easily identify veteran and newly conscripted units on the table?  

Add to list.  Each nation comes with a shade chart to assist in identifying unit experience.  That means that the Old Guard will have lighter uniforms than the Bavarians.   

I'll get my hat...

So even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started.

Agreed. There were enough instances of confusion that more daring commanders have been known to use that as a ruse to gain entry to fortresses etc.  But we love the spectacle and pageantry of full strength units and pristine uniforms on our tables. The other thing is that painting the same shade of blue on hundred's of figures grows tiresome quickly.