Some questions on making a Soviet army list

Started by Zinkala, 31 January 2022, 03:26:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Zinkala

Hi all. It's been awhile since I did much with BKC but a new year and a new project on the go. Seeing as I already have a bunch of late war germans I've decided to make a selection of things for a 1944 Soviet Guards Mechanised Corps. For a list of possible units I've been using John Tillers Campaign Series videogame and a US DoD document outlining Soviet army organisation. The video game has a lot of information on many units for all countries and periods. From my checking it seems pretty accurate. Good enough to help me with a generic list anyhow. Just a few things I'm not sure about.

They have a few 76mm divisional guns, either obr 39 or ZIS-3. In the rule book there are 3 listings for 76mm guns. A 76mm AT with 3/80 and 3/60 attacks, a 76mm Field gun with move 10 and 3/80 or 2/40 attacks and a second field gun with the same attacks and 5 move. Which one would most likely be the ZIS-3 stats? I'm leaning towards the AT version because I think that they could use the same armour piercing ammunition as the T-34's cannon. Off board indirect fire could use the stats for the 76mm listed there.

What do people use for AT rifle platoons? Again there's a couple options in the book. First is Platoon (AT Team). They have AP 1/30, AT 2/20 and double CA against AFVs. The second option is to upgrade an ordinary rifle platoon with AT rifles. This gives them AP 3/30 and AT 1/20. I'm leaning towards the first choice but no sure if they should have the close assault bonus.

In some of the submachine gun companies they have mg platoons listed. Does anybody know if those would be armed with maxims and use the support mg stats or degtaryovs and use the SMG/LMG stats. Could any of the smg platoons be upgraded to to the SMG/LMG?

There are several GAZ AAA trucks with 12.7mm AA machineguns throughout the source material. I'm going with these stats for them.
12.7mm GAZ   25   VEH   20   1/30   -   2   3   -   1   AA:1/30, full arc
I suppose that they could be considered to be included in the various HQ units. I just thought it would be interesting to have a few models and a bit of weak mobile AAA protection.

I can put the list I've done so far up for download if people are interested in seeing it.

sultanbev

1) 76mm M42 ZIS3 should be the anti-tank gun version listed, with the same stats as the T-34/76 gun.
2) A/T rifles were rarely issued to regular rifle platoons, but initially planned to have 2 per company in a separate platoon, which never materialised. Nearly all were allocated to specialist A/T rifle platoons and companies, platoons varying from 5-9 weapons with crew armed with SMG is most cases.
I would go with A/P= whatever an SMG is (6/10?), the rest as you've picked, as most A/T rifle platoons were generously equipped with molotovs and anti-tank grenades as well.

3) Many SMG companies had 9x DP28 LMG (1 per squad) as well as the SMG, so should have two A/P stats really, 6/10 for SMG if I recall, and 1/30 for the LMG, as shown in the late war lists.

4) Gaz truck + 12.7mm (also used US Studebaker 6x6 lorries), stats look fine to me.

Zinkala

Thanks for that, sultanbev. Sounds like my instincts weren't wrong on which choices. I wasn't sure if the AT rifle platoons would have been equipped for close combat. Just seemed like a huge rifle might not be the best option in a close quarter battle so wasn't sure it fit.

 So the mg platoons in an SMG company would use the support mg platoon stats. Seeing as a platoon LMGs was a common upgrade for the regular platoons.

sultanbev

Re the latter, I'm not aware of any Soveit SMG companies having an MMG platoon with Maxims. I've had a quick look at all the shtats I have and none show SMG companies with Maxims. Can you elaborate?


Zinkala

The info I have on them was from the East Front videogame I mentioned by John Tiller. By his reckoning a Guards Tank Brigade from January 1944 on consisted of 3 tank battalions (could be T-34/76, T-34/85 or M4s) of 2-3 companies each with 3 platoons and a SMG battalion. The SMG battalion consisted of 2 motorised companies with 3 SMG platoons and an MMG platoon and then a 3rd company with 3 SMG platoons, no trucks and no MMG platoon. I'm willing to believe your sources over that. I'm just starting to try and dig up records about this and have taken the lazy way out for the time being by using the game's TO&E.

Hmm, that brings up another question while I have someone with answers. His list for a Guards Mechanised Brigade has the infantry battalions consisting of 3 companies, each with 3 rifle platoons, MMG platoon and AT rifle platoon. Does that sound right?

I'm starting with the Guards units just because they were larger and better equipped so if I have models for them it's simple to repurpose them for other units later.

Zinkala

Reading the US Department of Defense document I found about Soviet organisation a little closer. It states that the SMG battalion had 4 7.62mm HMG. That could mean the mg platoon in the videogame. Also shows that the motorised rifle battalions in the mechanised brigade contain 54 AT rifles which I suppose could be the ATR platoons in the rifle companies.

Sadly it doesn't mention organisations smaller than companies and generally battalions. For example
3 Mtz R Bns
1,986 officers and men
807 7.62mm SAR, R and Cbn
723 7.62mm Smg
135 7.62mm Lmg
27 7.62mm Hmg
54 14.5mm ATR
18 82mm mort
6 120mm mort
129 Trk

pierre the shy

Maybe you will find these organisation diagrams on Leo Neihorster's website of use Zinkala:

1944/45 Armoured Brigade: http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/45_organ/45_brigade_tank.htm

1944/45 Mechanised Brigade: http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/45_organ/45_brigade_mech.htm

They are based on the official Soviet Shtats (Tables of Equipment) for the various units.

Hope that helps  :)
Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

sultanbev

thanks for that. According to Soviet sources, reproduced in Red Storm by Charles Sharp:

a Guards Tank Brigade and ordinary Tank Brigade for that matter has the same TOE:
3 Tank Bttns@ 21 tanks in 2 companies, and HQ recce platoon of 3x APC
-------------------
1 Motorised Rifle Battalion 507 men
Bttn HQ: 71 men - staff section, recce platoon: 3x APC
SMG Company: 101  men with SMG, 9 LMG, 2 MMG  in Guards units this was carried in M3A1 White S/C*
Motorised Rifle Company: 101 men with rifles, 9 LMG, 2 MMG
Tank Rider Company: 95 men all SMG
Mortar Company: 42 men, 6x 82mm mortar
ATR company: 63 men, 6x ATR (? possibly misprint ? 18 - was disbanded when T-34/85 was equipped into the brigade
AT battery: 44 men, 4x 45mm or 57mm
------------------
Bde HQ: 54 men, 2x T-34,
HQ Company- 164 men  Recce platoon: 3x Ba-64 or M3A1 White or Ssdkfz 251 or Universal Carrier, 3 LMG
        Sapper platoon: 3 LMG
        chemical defeence platoon: 3 LMG
        Signals platoon, supply section
AT Battery: 4x 76mm, 52 men
AAMG company: 9x 12.7mm AAHMG or 3x M16
----------

So my bad, apologies, serves me right for skim reading late at night!
SMG company with 2x Maxims is right there.With 2 companies having 2 each, the total of 4 is also correct.

*http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/45_organ/45_brigade_tank.htm

Importanr note, the motorised battalions of mechanised brigades and motorised brigades did have a different organisation to that of a Motorised Battalion within a tank brigade.

The same book shows the 3 Rifle Battalions of a Mechanised Brigade as (from April 1944):
6409 men, Bttn HQ, staff platoon, signal platoon, supply company
3 rifle companies@ 12 LMG, 2 MMG
MMG Company: 9 MMG
mortar company: 6x 82mm mortar
ATR company: 18x ATR
ATG company: 4x 45mm
SMG Company: 90 SMG

See also
http://www.niehorster.org/012_ussr/45_organ/45_brigade_mech.htm

Zinkala

Thanks both of you for the links to the niehorster website. I'd seen it sometime before but my google fu was failing lately. Those tables will help a lot. But it does look like the videogame lists are pretty accurate. I figured out how to use a library function in the game that gives a paragraph or so of information on each unit too. I guess what the game did was put the 2 mgs into a seperate platoon instead of as part of the existing rifle platoon. It works. All of the various sources I've seen are very similar and we all know in reality there could easily be more variety than that. Feeling good about the lists now.

I've been printing and painting these the last few days even while trying to finish off the list. A battalion of T34/85s, the 3 assault gun regiments and some trucks finished. Finished designed and did a test print of the GAZ AAMG truck. Printing bases and T34/76s today. Need to make stls of the various artillery and AT guns with crews. I was lucky that 90+% of what I need I have files for that are either good as is or with a small amount of tweaking.

Oh yeah. Asked this at TMP while I was trying to remember my password here. How would you assign FAOs? I haven't found any concrete examples of how they were organised yet other than they existed. At the moment I'm leaning towards 1 per battalion HQ on the table.

Zinkala

Here's a link to where people can download my lists. I did the Canadian ones last year and am pretty satisfied with them. The Soviet Mechanised Corps is new and may have some errors. Working on a Soviet Tank Corps list now and nearly finished. Got distracted by political events in Canada and eastern Europe lately. https://www.mediafire.com/folder/efe1atm77ihhs/army_lists

Big Insect

Quote from: Zinkala on 01 February 2022, 09:11:16 PMOh yeah. Asked this at TMP while I was trying to remember my password here. How would you assign FAOs? I haven't found any concrete examples of how they were organised yet other than they existed. At the moment I'm leaning towards 1 per battalion HQ on the table.

TBF for FAOs probably the best way is to work backwards from the number of off-table gun batteries. With the Soviets there is much less flexibility around assigning larger formations to front-line FAOs. It's likely that the larger calibre guns would be controlled via the higher-ranking officers. So I tend to assign an FAO to a specific HQ or to the CO and then attach batteries to them. With the larger calibre guns or MLRs to the CO. But again, if you are using OOBs it's easier to follow these.
Not sure if that is much help?
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.