WWII Italian mountain gun released!

Started by Leon, 20 January 2022, 11:52:07 AM

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GrumpyOldMan

QuoteThank you.  The gun is certainly OK for SCW, I just wanted to check if there was anything about the crew that would look wrong.

Hello ND

If you were worried about the look, you could use some of the Italian CTV https://www.pendraken.co.uk/italian-ctv-690-c.asp ie the mortar crewman, MMG second, officer, nco etc. I'm sure Leon would see his way clear to providing alternate crews. :)

Cheers

GrumpyOldMan

nigel drury

Thank you.  I've seen illustrations of the CTV in Adrian and in later helmets, wasn't sure how common the latter were.

John Cook

Quote from: nigel drury on 23 January 2022, 04:43:07 PMThank you.  The gun is certainly OK for SCW, I just wanted to check if there was anything about the crew that would look wrong.

Nigel, the troops in the photo are Blackshirt militia (MVSN), which comprised the vast majority of CTV at Guadalajara, manning a 65/17 Modello 13.  The MVSN at this period wore the Mod 1915 helmet, the Mod 1933 helmet being used by Royal Italian Army (REI) units.  Each Grupo of three Banderas had a battery of these pieces.  The French crews FRE6 and FRE7 would work for MSVN.  There seems to be a bit of a mix-up with nomenclature because the Mle 1906 65mm gun was actually a similar French weapon. 

nigel drury

Thank you John, that's very helpful.  I've just started SCW in 10mm hence the questions I've posted elsewhere.  For the REI units in Spain were there any practical differences in uniform from that in the WW2 range?

John Cook

Hi Nigel,  No, not really, other than the colour which was a greyish olive hue, or dark sand in warmer months.  This site is quite useful though the shades are a bit on the light side: 

http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscanovas.blogspot.com/2011/05/boletim-n-25-de-la-agupacion-de.html

If you can find a copy of Il Corpo Truppe Voluntarie Italiano Durante La Guerra Civile Spagnola 1936-1939 by Ernestino Chiappa it is about as comprehensive as it gets.

Here you can download a copy of JM Bueno's Uniformes Militares de La Guerra Civil Espanol en Color which covers the uniforms of both sides as a whole including the CTV.  It has been out of print for years and second hand copies are expensive:

https://www.scribd.com/document/200524042/Uniformes-Militares-De-La-Guerra-Civil-Espanol

nigel drury

Thank you.  Your comments on equipment in the Proxy Figures/Models section https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,20186.15.html was also very useful.

Sunray

Suggest we correct the confusion and confirm that ITA 29 depicts the 65/17 Modello 17, not the very similar French Mle 1906 gun.

Trade Descriptions Act and all that.... :)

fred.

There is also SCW110 Italian 65mm mountain gun - is this the same gun (but without crew)?

https://www.pendraken.co.uk/nscw110-nitalian-65mm-mountain-gun-2-3325-p.asp
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Leon

Yep, that's the same one for SCW use, folks just need to add crew.
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Tolstoyevsky

I recall hearing that the 65mm gun was used in Spain and still in use in North Africa for regimental or battalion support fire. But it wasn't of much use, until the Italian army discovered it could fire something...a hollow-charge or HEAT round...and they could use it as an ATG. As it was in North Africa, those were placed aboard trucks to make them mobile. Whether they would dismount them when they reached a defensible position is a question.

John Cook

Quote from: Tolstoyevsky on 02 February 2022, 02:49:45 PMI recall hearing that the 65mm gun was used in Spain and still in use in North Africa for regimental or battalion support fire. 

Yes, it certainly was used in Spain by the National Army and by the Italian Corpo Truppe Volontarie.  Each National Army Brigade at Jarama in 1937, for example, had a battery of 65/17 from the Grupo de Artilleria de Accompaniamento and each Grupo de Banderas, essentially a brigade, in the CTV at Guadalajara had a battery of 65/17 too.  They were supposed to be for infantry support but they were an effective anti-tank weapon against the Popular Army's lightly armoured T26 tanks.     

sultanbev

The Italin 65/17 mountain gun did have an AP round, but in 1939-40 there was only 6% of shells being AP, about 12 per gun. They were portees on Fiat 634 lorries in some divisions in North Africa.
The EP HEAT round came into service in spring 1942 in North Africa.