ITLSU - SCW

Started by paulr, 24 March 2022, 06:23:32 PM

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paulr

Are Green more vulnerable to fire?
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mmcv


QuoteAre Green more vulnerable to fire?
Caveat: I have only read the rules not actually played them yet.


From what I understand green troops are less likely to be suppressed (due to lacking battle awareness) but when suppressed have a harder time shaking it off. I believe this means they are more vulnerable to fire as they spend more time in the open rather than going to ground like veteran troops which are suppressed sooner but more able to shake it off.

But hopefully someone more knowledgeable can confirm!

paulr

Thanks, it looks as though this is a common approach across multiple rule sets :)

Now, how to do do that appropriately in ITLSU :-\
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paulr

My pottering about continues...

Can anyone point me at good online sources for brigade organisations for Jarama in February 1937

This looks to involve an interesting variety of forces and seems to be late enough that both sides have some experience but early enough to avoid masses on conscripts

After some initial prodding about I'm quite interested in the Nationalist IV Brigade and the Republican XII International Brigade
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John Cook

29 March 2022, 03:32:06 PM #19 Last Edit: 29 March 2022, 04:05:15 PM by John Cook
Republican XII International Brigade and Nationalist IV Brigade 

There is very little on-line concerning orders of battle, detailed ones anyway, that I can see.  There are books, mainly Spanish in origin that contain orders of battle but most seem to be out of print these days and used copies are becoming expensive.  Ones you should look for on Jarama are Rafael Lopez and Artemio Perez 'La Batalla del Jarama' and Carlos Engel 'Historia de las Brigadas Mixtas del Ejército Popular de la Republica'.  In English Ben Hughes 'They Shall not Pass – The British Battalion at Jarama' is a readable account of the British battalion at Jarama and also contains an order of battle.

Here are OBs for the formations you are interested in.

2a Agrupación – 18a Brigada Mixta
                           24a Brigada Mixta
                           XII Brigada Internacionale.  Commanded by Béla Frankl aka Máté Zalka aka General Pál
                           Lukács KIA Huesca 11 June 1937. 

                           Batallón Dombrowski (Polish-Balkan)
                           Batallón Garibaldi (Italian, Albanian, Spanish)
                           Batallón André Marty (Franco-Belgian)
                           Batallón Madrid (Spanish)
                           Batallón Prieto (Spanish)
                           one unidentified cavalry squadron.

II Agrupación – V Brigada
                         IV Brigada.  Commanded by Coronel don Carlos Asensio Cavanillas

                         7o Regimiento de Infantería comprising

                         I Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan
                         II Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan
                         II Batallón Expedicionario de Tenerife

                         8o Regimiento de Infantería comprising

                         VI Bandera de la Legión
                         VII Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
             
                        1o Regimiento de Caballería comprising

                         3o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas No 5
                         3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         4o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Villarrobledo No 1

                         3a Batería del Grupo de Artilleriá de Acompañamiemto (65/17 Mod 13)
                         10a Batería del 13o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
                         4a Batería del 15o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
                         5a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
                         Batería Ligera de la Academia de Artilleriá (Vickers 105/22)
                         1a Sección de la 1a Batería Antitanque (Pak 35/36)

                         3a Companía de Batallón de Carros de Combate (PzKpfw I Ausf A)

                         6a Companía de Zapadores de Valladolid

paulr

Many thanks John, it looks like my amateur research was surprisingly accurate :)

A few questions, if I may

1. What artillery & antitank support did XII Brigada Internacionale have
2. What armour support might they have been able to call on, even if that's a little tough on the Nationalist's Pz Is
3. Are the Republicans 3 companies plus an MG company per battalion, how many MGs
4. Are the Nationalist Batería 4 guns
5. Are the Nationalists 3 companies plus an MG company per battalion, how many MGs
6. How many MGs in Sección ametralladoras Cazadores

Also do the following figure ranges make sense for the units

International Brigades - Batallón Dombrowski, Batallón Garibaldi, Batallón André Marty
Regular Army—Summer - Batallón Madrid, Batallón Prieto (or would Militia and/or Republican Infantry be better)
Militia Cavalry - one unidentified cavalry squadron

Moroccan Regulars—Summer - I Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan, II Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan, VII Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
(Can I mix in some Moroccan Mehal-la-Jalifiana for variety)
Regular Army—Summer - II Batallón Expedicionario de Tenerife, VI Bandera de la Legión
Moroccan Cavalry - 3o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas No 5
Regular Army—Cavalry - 3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6, 4o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
MG / LMG pack horse team (5) - Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Numancia No 6, Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Villarrobledo No 1
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John Cook

No problem. 

1.  XII Brigada, like all Popular Army brigades at Jarama, had no organic artillery or antitank support.  At Jarama the artillery was centralised at army level and comprised the following:

5 batteries of Schneider 75/28 Mod 06 guns (three pieces each).
3 batteries of 7.7cm FK16 guns (three pieces each).
1 battery of 10.5cm FH16 howitzers (three pieces).
1 battery of 10.5cm FH98/09 howitzers (three pieces).
2 batteries of Vickers 105mm Mod 22 howitzers (three pieces each).
16 batteries of Ordnance QF 4.5 inch howitzers (three pieces each).
4 batteries of Schneider 155C Mod17 howitzers (two pieces each).
1 battery of Krupp 155/26 gun (one piece)

2.  XII Brigada had no armour support as such.  The Tank Brigade was centralised at army level like the artillery.  It  comprised two battalions of approximately 30 T-26 each and was usually deployed piecemeal in company strength.  They were used in larger numbers a couple of times during the battle.  The first on 11 February when some 25 T-26 supported the Garibaldis and Dombrowskis.  They suffered badly from Nationalist field and anti-tank guns when they became isolated from their infantry support and promised artillery and air support failed to materialise.  The inability of badly trained Republican infantry to cooperate with armour, poor radio communications, the effectiveness of Nationalist artillery and anti-tank guns, and the nature of the ground, all meant that the performance of Republican tanks at Jarama was pretty dismal. 

3. Popular Army battalions comprised three rifle companies and one MG company of 8 MG, usually Soviet Maxim M10 though the British Battalion had German MG08 at Jarama.

4. National Army artillery batteries at Jarama, as far as I know, followed the pre-war organisation of four pieces to a battery.  The anti-tank sections had five Pak 35/36.

5. Yes, Nationalist battalions comprised 3 companies plus an MG company.  Legion MG companies had 8 Hotchkiss M14

6.  A pre-war cavalry regiment comprised four sabre squadrons (usually reduced to two) and an automatic weapons squadron (escuadrón de armas automáticas) comprising:

One MG section of eight Hotchkiss M14 MMG in two platoons
One LMG section of six Hotchkiss M22 LMG in two platoons.
One mortar platoon with two 50mm mortars.

However, National Army cavalry regiments at Jarama comprised elements from a variety of pre-war regiments and I'm not sure which MG sections are meant in the OBs.  I suspect that they are M14 HMG sections. 

Turning to figures, Jarama was fought in January and February 1937, so strictly speaking you want cold weather clothing, rather than shirt sleeve order, but I wouldn't get too dogmatic about that, unless you want to. 

The International Brigades.  These were equipped and uniformed like any other Popular Army unit and I'm not sure why the distinction has been made in the lists.  Spanish units often served in International Brigade formations alongside units raised from foreign volunteers.  For any and all Popular Army battalions, including the International Brigades battalions, use any figures from the International Brigade and Republican Infantry ranges. 

I have no idea of the identity of the unidentified cavalry squadron in XII Brigade; I'm not sure whether it was a militia unit or not.  There were elements of the cavalry regiment Jesus Hernandez (named after the PCE politician) at Jarama.  I mix figures from the Regular Army Cavalry and Militia Cavalry ranges for my Popular Army cavalry.

Moroccan Regulars.  The uniforms of the regulars and Mehal were pretty similar so no reason not to mix them if you want to. 

I have no comments to make about your remaining selections, they all seem OK to me.

Finally, you might want to download this if you haven't found it already.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/132067342/Uniformes-militares-de-la-Guerra-Civil-Espanola-Jose-Maria-Bueno

paulr

Many thanks John, very useful
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paulr

Quote...
6.  A pre-war cavalry regiment comprised four sabre squadrons (usually reduced to two) and an automatic weapons squadron (escuadrón de armas automáticas) comprising:

One MG section of eight Hotchkiss M14 MMG in two platoons
One LMG section of six Hotchkiss M22 LMG in two platoons.
One mortar platoon with two 50mm mortars.
...

Were LMGs used in dedicated units as lighter versions of the MG platoons/sections or were they dispersed amongst the rifle platoons/sections to provide a more general boost to fire power?

With a bit more reading and having located some useful maps I've decided that the Nationalist III Brigada is a more historic opponent for XII Brigada Internacionale.
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John Cook

Hi Paul, the elements of LMG and MG sections in the cavalry were, as far as I can tell, usually deployed to support the sabre squadrons as necessary.  I am not even sure that the LMG section survived into the war and the same goes for the mortar platoon.  They were certainly there on the peacetime establishment and I've chosen to include them in my National Army cavalry regiment.  The elements of the MG company in the infantry battalions, on both sides, was usually split up and used to support the rifle companies, rather than kept as a single entity.  Having said that, the British Battalion of the IB at Jarama kept its MG company together as a single battery of eight MGs.

III Brigada was part of I Agrupación

III Brigada commanded by Coronel don Fernado Barrón Ortiz
   
5o Regimiento de Infantería
   I Bandera de la Legión
   I Batallón Cazadores de Cueta
   
   6o Regimiento de Infantería
   I Tabor de Tiradores de Ifni
   I Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
         
2o Regimiento de Caballería
   1o Escuadrón Cazadores de Farnesio No1
   4o Escuadrón Cazadores de Farnesio No1
   Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Farnesio No1
   3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Villarrobledo No1
   3o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Melilla No
   Sección ametralladoras del Grupo de Regulares de Melilla No

3o Regimiento de Caballería   
   3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Calatrava No2             
   6o Escuadrón Cazadores de Calatrava No2
   6o Cazadores Cazadores de Calatrava No2
   Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Calatrava No2
   2o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas No

Artilleriá
   1a Batería del Grupo de Artilleriá de Acompañamiemto (65/17 Mod 13)
   9a Batería del 13o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
   7a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
   Batería Arjona (Schneider de 75/28)
   6a Batería del 12o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
   4a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
   2a Sección de la 1a Batería Antitanque (Five Pak 35/36)
   
   1a Companía de Batallón de Carros de Combate (Fifteen PzKpfw I Ausf A)

   Companía de Zapadores de Marruecos
 

pierre the shy

Organisation of the Spanish Armed Forces 1936 - 44 by Leo Niehorster

http://niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html

Might give you a bit of assistance and some further sources (in Spanish) if you haven't seen his site yet.
"Spring chicken to s***ehawk in one easy lesson"

John Cook

Quote from: pierre the shy on 02 April 2022, 04:11:51 AMOrganisation of the Spanish Armed Forces 1936 - 44 by Leo Niehorster

Thanks for that.  Yes, the site generally is very useful for WW2 but, unfortunately, not so much for the SCW, which is OK for the pre-war and post-war Spanish army but not for the Civil War itself.  The Peninsular Army ceased to exist more or less, part going to the rebels and part remaining loyal, and the Army of Africa was completely reorganised after it had been transported to mainland Spain.