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Started by Amra, 02 January 2022, 02:12:32 PM

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Amra

Hi All ,
The units in () can only be chosen in 2000 + point lists.
What happens when your CO is in () ?
Do you "promote" an HQ to be the CO ?
I'm still trying to get my head around the Finns not using snipers as standard at less than 2000pts :)
Cheers

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

My solution would be to ignore thiose limitations if you feel them to be wrong.
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Steve J

You always have a CO, irrespective of the size of the force. As for the snipers, if you feel the limitation is wrong, simply ignore it. They are good guides but cannot cover all types of action, kampfgruppe etc.
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Amra

Thanks all,
I'm happy to make adjustments,I just want to make sure I've got the rules right :)
I get that I must have a CO , but looking at the German Africa list for example , they can only have a total of 2 HQs at < 2000 pts.
How does that work ? If I call one the CO ,I've only got one HQ ?

fred.

02 January 2022, 05:32:48 PM #4 Last Edit: 02 January 2022, 05:34:37 PM by fred.
QuoteHi All ,
The units in () can only be chosen in 2000 + point lists.
What happens when your CO is in () ?
Do you "promote" an HQ to be the CO ?
I'm still trying to get my head around the Finns not using snipers as standard at less than 2000pts :)
Cheers


I think you might be reading the limits rules wrongly, this is the text from the rules:

Limits are used when creating battlegroups using the points system and are written as max (max per battlegroup).  A value of 3(6) would mean that you can have a maximum of 3 units per 1000 points, and a total of 6 overall in larger battlegroup size.  A dash indicates there is no limit.  These limits are generally based on battalion-level organisations, so the max limit is the number of units per battalion and the max per battlegroup limit is the number of units per regiment.

From the Finnish list
So (1) in relation to the CO means you can only have 1 CO per battlegroup.
For the HQ with CV9 with limits of 1 (3). Means you can have 1 in games up to 1999 points, and 2 in games up to 2999 points. And 3 in games over 3000 pts

HQs are not COs - they are similar but they are distinct units.

Snipers at (1) is a single sniper per battlegroup irrespective of points.


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fred.

QuoteThanks all,
I'm happy to make adjustments,I just want to make sure I've got the rules right :)
I get that I must have a CO , but looking at the German Africa list for example , they can only have a total of 2 HQs at < 2000 pts.
How does that work ? If I call one the CO ,I've only got one HQ ?
You get a CO and up to 2 HQs (so 3 command units in total) - but these are 3 really good command units, they will generally get a lot done.

Games of around 1900 to 1999 points can stretch the lists a bit - going to 2000 makes army building easy, but 1750 or so may work better than 1999.

As the others have said the limits in the lists are very much guides and if you are following historical organisations or orders of battles - then these will always be more specific than the lists which have to be fairly generic to cover often fairly wide range of force sizes and time periods.
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Ithoriel

To channel my inner Douglas Bader, lists (like rules) are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of fools :)

As other have said, if you don't like it, change it. With your opponents agreement, naturally.

I play mostly solo these days so if I can't get my opponent's agreement I have bigger problems than an army list! :D
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Dave Fielder

Quote from: Ithoriel on 02 January 2022, 06:58:18 PMTo channel my inner Douglas Bader, lists (like rules) are for the guidance of wise men and the adherence of fools :)

As other have said, if you don't like it, change it. With your opponents agreement, naturally.

I play mostly solo these days so if I can't get my opponent's agreement I have bigger problems than an army list! :D
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Amra

Thanks all for the help .

Again ,I appreciate I can vary it with my opponent but I'm more trying to understand the rules as written. I don't like to vary until I understand and play with the rules someone has put thought into :)

Fred , thanks but what about when your limit is (1) ? I read that as only taken at >2000 points .
 
When its the CO, how do I get a CO at <2000 points?
 
Are the DAK limited to 2 Commanders at <2000 points ?

Cheers all ,thanks again

fred.

I agree its really important to understand the rules as written before you start changing stuff - there are often reasons game rules exists that may not be immediately apparent. 

I quoted the Limits rules from p75 - what are you reading that says (1) only applies to 2000pts plus?
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Raider4


QuoteFred , thanks but what about when your limit is (1) ? I read that as only taken at >2000 points .
 
When its the CO, how do I get a CO at <2000 points?
If the limit is (1), then you can have just one, irrespective of points cost. 600 pts or 6000 pts, you just get the one.
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Amra

And just like that I'm hit by a shaft of blinding light :)

Thank you Fred and Raider4 , between you I was able to work it out
 
These aren't min/max in the way other rules have them

A number without brackets is the max per 1000 or part thereof ( so up to 1999 ) .
 
A number with brackets is the total allowed for the force regardless of points .

A number with no bracketed number following means the 1000 pt limit applies but there is no overall maximum

A number only bracketed means its the maximum for the force regardless of points .

So to answer me :) , every force can take a CO regardless of points but it can only have one

The Finns can have a sniper regardless of points but only ever 1 .

The DAK have only 2 HQs available at <2000 pts

Thanks to everyone for the help in getting my preconceptions out of the way

Lord help me , I'm just not very smart  :(

fred.

Yes, that's it. Often the hardest bit with learning new rules is realising which bits work differently to other rules you are used to. 

Also with BKC it has been out for a lot of years now - so most of us understand how this is meant to work from experience not from actually reading the current version of the rules!

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Big Insect

Quote from: Amra on 05 January 2022, 06:35:16 AMAnd just like that I'm hit by a shaft of blinding light :)

Thank you Fred and Raider4 , between you I was able to work it out
 
These aren't min/max in the way other rules have them

A number without brackets is the max per 1000 or part thereof ( so up to 1999 ) .
 
A number with brackets is the total allowed for the force regardless of points .

A number with no bracketed number following means the 1000 pt limit applies but there is no overall maximum

A number only bracketed means its the maximum for the force regardless of points .

So to answer me :) , every force can take a CO regardless of points but it can only have one

The Finns can have a sniper regardless of points but only ever 1 .

The DAK have only 2 HQs available at <2000 pts

Thanks to everyone for the help in getting my preconceptions out of the way

Lord help me , I'm just not very smart  :(

A very clear summary Amra.

As Fred says there are usually no minimums, but occasionally minimums and maximums that might apply to a scenario - for example, or to recreate a specific historic engagement or in the case of some of the Micromark lists (potentially). But we have moved away from a lot of minimums in BKCIV because there are pretty much always scenarios or situations where no infantry were involved (for example).
The rules work best as a combined-arms game. You can use an all armoured force (for example), but it will have advantages and disadvantages. Likewise an artillery 'heavy' force can be fun to play, but can also be hugely frustrating, and an all infantry force will create a high army break-point but can be very vulnerable, in the wrong terrain.

Sounds like you are getting your 'head' around the rules very quickly.
Cheers
Mark
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