To the Strongest - typical army size

Started by steve_holmes_11, 18 October 2021, 10:13:18 PM

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steve_holmes_11

I've read the To the Strongest rules, and think they might tempt me back to ancients.

I cannot figure out the size of a typical army for the recommended 12 x 8 batlefield.
Can anybody help, whether unit count or points?


It may be a paradox, but it seems that a grid game requires more specific troop density than a free form one.

fred.

We've played a lot more For King and Parliament than TtS but have played games with some very different unit counts on the table, and all have worked.

I'm struggling to recall unit counts, but around 12 per side would not be uncommon.
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Having recent purchased "For King & Parliament" from the same stable I have to agree with you Steve.  I have never played Ancients and don't even have armies........yet ! 

pierre the shy

18 October 2021, 11:53:44 PM #3 Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 12:34:30 AM by pierre the shy
I got TtS when I bought FK&P as well but have'nt played them yet.....I like FK&P too much to have time to play TtS :)

However for a comparison we refought the Battle of Inverkeithing using FK&P last Saturday (I will post a separate AAR about it) on a 10 x 16 grid (150mm squares).

The Scots get 12 units (plus command and light gun bases) in total, while the Parliamentarian (or Commonweath if you prefer) get the same number of overall units.

We usually play on a scenario basis rather than using points values/army lists.  

Though much is taken, much abides; and though
we are not now that strength which in old days
moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are.

mmcv

12-15 units is about standard though will vary on how expensive the units are. Usually it recommends battles of 130-150 points for a normal game, though you can of course play much bigger battles too if you like. A standard unit is 7 points, whereas more powerful ones can be 10-15 points, weaker ones 3-4 points and then commanders and camps and so forth all cost.

Have you a particular period of ancients you're interested in? I've a bunch of sample army lists made up as project plans so could possibly give you more specific examples.

T13A

Hi

Wot mmcv said!

Great set of rules which virtually always give an exciting game. Had a really good 240 point aside game last week (but on a much bigger table than mentioned above and using 15mm figures in 10cm boxes) in which my Ancient Brits beat the evil empire.  :)

Cheers Paul
T13A Out!

Raider4


steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Raider4 on 19 October 2021, 11:00:26 AM
Which one? There's been so many . . .

Is it still Games Workshop?
Or Darth Vader and his robot army?

These things change so quickly..

steve_holmes_11

19 October 2021, 12:17:20 PM #8 Last Edit: 19 October 2021, 12:21:03 PM by steve_holmes_11
Quote from: mmcv on 19 October 2021, 01:00:29 AM
12-15 units is about standard though will vary on how expensive the units are. Usually it recommends battles of 130-150 points for a normal game, though you can of course play much bigger battles too if you like. A standard unit is 7 points, whereas more powerful ones can be 10-15 points, weaker ones 3-4 points and then commanders and camps and so forth all cost.

Have you a particular period of ancients you're interested in? I've a bunch of sample army lists made up as project plans so could possibly give you more specific examples.

Thanks.
A real strength of Ancients is the massive variety available.
I find a resulting weakness is that most clusters of opposed armies tend to feature one almost unbeatable "evil empire".
I've written elsewhere about rules that my opponents and I renamed "Romans can't lose".

Another thing to avoid are the "Nobody fights" match ups.
These frequently occur with armies composed mainly of one troop type meet.
For example light bow cavalry against shieldwall type infantry.

We know in history, with logistics and campaign objectives that the infantry could be surrounded, cut off and eliminated.
But most times tey will hold their lines, and the marauders will ride off to such a town or burn some crops.
On tabletop, without the pressures of history or campaign, the shield wall can usually wait for the horesmen's ammunition to dwindle.


That brings me to two interesting and relatively balanced conflicts.

Early on Mithriadites seems one of the few rulers who can give the Marian Romans a run for their money.

14 centuries later later, and a few hundred miles to the west there are some interesting looking match ups in the Medieval Balkans.
That gap between the failure of the Crusades and the fall of Byzantium.
Later Byzantines, Eastern Latins, Venice Abroad, Ottomans and the Catalan Company.



mmcv

I suspect the immitation legionaries had a lot to do with the Pontic success!

I don't have any specific lists for those but plugging some details from the Venice abroad lists into my spreadsheet could give you a 130 point army a bit like this:

3 Attached mounted generals   
3 Later knights      
3 Light cavalry, crossbow      
2 Spearmen   
3 Crossbowmen with   Pavises
4 assorted Light infantry   
1 1VP battle standard

Though there's some flexibility there as they have the options for a lot more light infantry if you prefer fielding your crossbowmen as lights rather than full units.

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: mmcv on 19 October 2021, 01:34:27 PM
I suspect the immitation legionaries had a lot to do with the Pontic success!

I don't have any specific lists for those but plugging some details from the Venice abroad lists into my spreadsheet could give you a 130 point army a bit like this:

3 Attached mounted generals   
3 Later knights      
3 Light cavalry, crossbow      
2 Spearmen   
3 Crossbowmen with   Pavises
4 assorted Light infantry   
1 1VP battle standard

Though there's some flexibility there as they have the options for a lot more light infantry if you prefer fielding your crossbowmen as lights rather than full units.

Thank you, a great example: 8 "fighting" and 7 "Light" units.

That rather changes my vision of a flank to flank continuous line packed in two deep.
In fact it seems rather sparse (maybe a good thing, providing the horsies with some room to manoeuvre)

mmcv

Yeah on a 12x8 grid you generally have a 10x2 deployment zone for your troops and camp. Of course, terrain concerns and enemy deployments could shrink that down a lot too. You can generally fit 2 normal units per box, so you could form up in a very deep condensed line or spread out in a long line, or even split up into separate groups. That was based on the later lists, if you go slightly earlier you can use knights rather than later knights which are a little cheaper (but not as tough) and up the number of lights, maybe even throw in some mercenary halberdiers or an extra unit of knights.

Let me know if there's any others you want a quick sample list of. They can generally be tweaked and configured in a number of ways to your liking but trying to just give you a flavour of an average army for them.

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: mmcv on 19 October 2021, 03:12:22 PM
Yeah on a 12x8 grid you generally have a 10x2 deployment zone for your troops and camp. Of course, terrain concerns and enemy deployments could shrink that down a lot too. You can generally fit 2 normal units per box, so you could form up in a very deep condensed line or spread out in a long line, or even split up into separate groups. That was based on the later lists, if you go slightly earlier you can use knights rather than later knights which are a little cheaper (but not as tough) and up the number of lights, maybe even throw in some mercenary halberdiers or an extra unit of knights.

Let me know if there's any others you want a quick sample list of. They can generally be tweaked and configured in a number of ways to your liking but trying to just give you a flavour of an average army for them.

I do have a bunch of PDFs which used to be available for free.
I think the author has now replaced them with a 10 quid book of lists (or perhaps two).

However, your suggested list is extremely useful.
It's one thing to stare at a big ist of options (and be that "but I want that AAAAllll!!!" guy).
It's a whole different education to look at a specced out working army.

Maybe that's what I really enjoyed about DBA and Basic Impetus - Here's your army, a couple of choices at most - don't like it, there are about 400 others.


Raider4

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 19 October 2021, 05:28:35 PM
It's one thing to stare at a big list of options . . .

Ahh, yes, really don't like that. Never know what to do. Paralysis by analysis.

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 19 October 2021, 05:28:35 PM
Maybe that's what I really enjoyed about DBA and Basic Impetus - Here's your army, a couple of choices at most - don't like it, there are about 400 others.

Also One Hour Wargames - roll for which six units (from only four possible options) you get to use.

mmcv

Yeah TtS is a bit more flexible than DBA and the like but the lists for the most part are well thought out and tend to give you a core army of things you must take (usually around 80-100 points) then give you some flexibility around the rest and options for veterans etc.

Simon did take down the free ones as he's now compiled two paid pdfs as you say. The new ones are pretty comprehensive, have a lot of historical notes and get updated every few months with new lists. I haven't actually don't have the latest medieval one so that list might have some changes since but probably pretty much there.