Impetus rules and base sizes

Started by Bob51451, 25 September 2021, 07:15:19 PM

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Bob51451

Hi Everyone,

How are things going ? I hope well, I have made up my mind what rules I'm going to use,  the rules I'm going to use are IMPETUS. If there are anyone out there that uses or have used them in the pass, I have a few question, first of all I am using 10 mm Japanese figures in the Sengoku Jidai Period. The questions are: Bases:  What are the bases for 10 mm figures ?, How many figures on a base ( Pike men ,  Archers ), I could not find a point system or how many formations or groups of figures I can have per side. It says something like you can use 15 mm base sizes, for 10 mm figures, for heavy troops , frontage  ,8 cm X 3 -4 cm. Does that sound ok,
I'm sorry for all the stupid question, but I would like to start painting and getting the figures on there stands.
Thanks for all the help, God knows I need it, lol

Stay well all,

Bob51451

steve_holmes_11

Hey Bob,

It's years since I read the Impetus rules, so I can't recall whether they recommend specific sizes.
Having seen Impetus bases on blogs, the owners make a lot of the "base as a diorama" potential, but seem to use differing sizes.

I know the 4xmultiple of the WRG ancients base is popular with the 15mm crowd. (Pop 4 x RRG infantry bases onto an 80mm x 40mm sabot).
There's obviously a trade off between big bases that look good, how many bases you can fit on your table, and the overall cost of an army.
I'll therefore fall back on my usual recommendations.

1. Find out what size bases your opponents use (or plan to use). This allows you to share and enjoy.

2. Like going to the tailors, or a shoe shop, things work best when you perform a fitting.

    Order a few packs (2 different foot; shooters and spears, and one mounted is enough).
    Cut out some cardboard to some base sizes you'd like to try.
    Stick the figures on the bases with Blu-Tac (or similar)

    This gives you some idea how the bases will look.
    No risk of having bases that look too crowded or too empty.
    It also tells you how many figures you need per base - whihc is important when you submit your big order later.



 

DecemDave

Sound advice above.  I'm currently thinking about "Impetus" based 10mms as my last order from Pendraken could demonstrate (loadsa 8cm wide bases)

Officially the rules (p7) say use 1/2 the base dimensions shown for 25/28mm  i.e. half of 12cm or 6cm frontage  but then add " You may prefer to use 15mm base sizes instead".  i.e. 8cm frontage.  The latter makes sense to me since it will look more army like, its easy to move units about and enables play vs 15mm armies as can be seen on other threads in this forum.  Of course you could even go 12cm frontage if your wallet and painting speed allows but that gives you a challenge with filling the depth.  I experimented with 6cm  which means you could instantly play DBA but the 8cm looks better. 

The number of figures per base is up to you in Impetus and there is no figure or element removal. Hence why the 28mm chaps go scenic (and it can save a few figures per unit) whereas we can go for creatively shaped masses of the little folk.  I agree that imagining your impetus base as 4 WRG type bases is very helpful in getting a starting point as it is still useful for lights (FL) and FP (heavy infantry like pikemen) to look different .  Then you can add  figures as your eye and wallet prefer.  You will be able to get at least 50% and often double the figures of 15mm and so have infantry units around 18-24  figure FL, 24-32 FP  etc. etc.   As previous poster said, try it out with some samples to find what you like the look of. 

Official 15mm impetus depths are  6cm cavalry, 3 (or 4 your choice) cm FP, 2 (or3 your choice) cm Skirmishers and 4cm for FL and T (missiles like archers).   

I'm planning on using the base= 4* WRG elements concept so that Impetus units could (with some rule bending)then be used in WRG/DB/FOG ,Thomas, ADLG, and most recent sets with markers to denote loss of sub-elements if needed. 

The concept doesn't always work out.  For example with Mobs/Hordes  4 DB mob bases would be 6 or even 8cm deep which is a lot of space for 10mm infantry figures, so I'm planning to stick to the Impetus 4cm and can add a 2cm  rear strip if I ever face a purist.  (unlikely).  Others might like 56+ figure mobs.


rct75001

I and my friends have used them extensively over the past 6 years or more.  There are now thre versions around - Impetus (original), Basic Impetus and Impetus 2.  Have you decided which of these you will be using?  If not my advice would be steer away from Basic Impetus (too simple - intended for comps) and go to Impetus 2 (leant from changes to introduced in Lorenzo's other rules - Baroque - and the reaction system adds quite a bit to the game).

On base sizes, we have only used 28mm so I'm afraid I can't help directly with your challenge.  However, I am in the early stages of doing TYW armies in 10mm using the other rules Baroque.  In that case I have gone with the 15mm base size and put more figures on.  As for how many on a base, I did exactly what Steve said.  Then prepared a test base and am considering whether I try and squeeze more on.   My early attempts are shown below.





Enjoy

Richard
And she said "You haven't bought more of those little men have you?"

https://rctlittlesoldiers.blogspot.com.au

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

First hello. Bases and figures - it's what looks right in any scale. Most rules have a suggested frontage so use that, 40mm frontage is fairly statndard for 15mm and smaller with 20 or 30mm depth for infantry and cavalry, with Chariots, Elies and guns on 40mm squares. have fun.
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fred.

Quote from: rct75001 on 25 September 2021, 10:37:41 PM




Now that is a great base!

I've thought about doing similiar, but flit around between rules so much I prefer to go with smaller bases and movement trays. But the downside is you can't really create that kind of look.
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Westmarcher

I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.

DecemDave

Love that base.  Excellent use of the depth with 10mm figures. 

DecemDave

26 September 2021, 10:34:08 AM #8 Last Edit: 26 September 2021, 10:39:57 AM by DecemDave
For a quick and uglier comparison, here are 2 of my ECW units on 4cm frontage bases, jammed together to mock up a tercio . So its a 12cm square.



As usual everyone is right, 4cm gives more flexibility but you cant create the same effects as a big base to start with.  I put my ECW units on 4cm for the flexibility to do just this type of different formation (and potentially swap out the 40*10 flag base for TYW ones) but  movement trays are then essential where your ruleset is not 1 base = 1 unit and I think the trays tend to overwhelm the small figures.  
The point I think no one has raised yet is what sort of unit formations are you representing? I know nothing of Japanese formations.  4cm based figures will work very well where a unit looks like a larger version of the base as in Roman Legions or  Napoleonics or ACW or whatever.  Not so much for Tercios, Circular schiltrons, cavalry wedges etc.


DecemDave

26 September 2021, 10:34:55 AM #9 Last Edit: 26 September 2021, 10:40:55 AM by DecemDave
.

steve_holmes_11

26 September 2021, 10:52:23 AM #10 Last Edit: 26 September 2021, 10:56:32 AM by steve_holmes_11
Something else to bear in mind is that you'll rarely have as many figures in your unit as were present in real life.
This sometimes calls for a bit of artistic license when doing big base formations.

I'll provide a couple of examples.

My rather old 6mm Napoleonic army has 120 figures per battalion (a ratio of about 4 real people to one tiny figure).
It gives a good mass effect when deployed in line.

A very old ACW force has infantry units of 12 men representing a regiment.
I initially placed a command group on every one of these, and the effect was total flag overkill, like some high school marching band jamboree.
I later based more units without command groups, so every 4th unit had a flag and officer.
This looked rather better, with a commander for every 48 men - still too many, but more convincing to the eye.

You might consider something similar with Ancients.
Each base looking like a century, with one or two or two including command groups.


With plenty of figures per base, some formations can look convincing, mainly lines and mass columns.
Formations that are harder to pull off are.
  Figures mounted in square.
  Lines with "skirmishers" about 6 paces in front of the line (That isn't how skirmishers operated).
  Any "clever" formation with too few troops (More of a problem with the bigger scales).

Bob51451

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the good advice. What I am leaning toward is using the Impetus rules and using the 15 mm basing size.   What do you all think, for the heavy, light and missile troops the base will be 8 cm  x 3 cm ( 14 figures )  ( I wish that it could be less  figures, but I think it might look good ), then for the  Heavy,Light and Me
diun cavalry the bases will be 8cm x 6 cm ( each base w.ill have 8 figures )  and  then comes the Skirmishers , there
Bases will be 8 cm x 3 cm with  3 or 4 figures. So what do you think ?  I'm tight for money so I have to watch how many figure I can buy. ( buying both sides ).
     Also does anyone know of a good set of rules on sailing ships in the  Napoleonic and the War of 1812 period.  A friend  and myself might be building a small fleet of ships in either periods  and are looking for a good set of rules...

Well I have to go, but thanks for all the help on my Japanese army and the set of rules and the bases too, thanks again

Bob51451

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Bob51451 on 26 September 2021, 07:22:26 PM
Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the good advice. What I am leaning toward is using the Impetus rules and using the 15 mm basing size.   What do you all think, for the heavy, light and missile troops the base will be 8 cm  x 3 cm ( 14 figures )  ( I wish that it could be less  figures, but I think it might look good ), then for the  Heavy,Light and Me
diun cavalry the bases will be 8cm x 6 cm ( each base w.ill have 8 figures )  and  then comes the Skirmishers , there
Bases will be 8 cm x 3 cm with  3 or 4 figures. So what do you think ?  I'm tight for money so I have to watch how many figure I can buy. ( buying both sides ).
     Also does anyone know of a good set of rules on sailing ships in the  Napoleonic and the War of 1812 period.  A friend  and myself might be building a small fleet of ships in either periods  and are looking for a good set of rules...

Well I have to go, but thanks for all the help on my Japanese army and the set of rules and the bases too, thanks again

Bob51451

It sounds good.
Some tweaks you might consider:
One or two fewer of the "Light but formed" troop bases (Missile foot and light cavalry).
One or two more on the "Heavy foot and cavalry".
The slightly different densities will provide a visual cue to the "weight" of the unit - which isn't always obvious if looking from the far end of the table.

Bear in mind the size of packs (usually 30 foot or 15 mounted).
If you figure out your army composition, and do a bit of mathematics, you can avoid purchasing too many spares.

Bob51451

Hi Steve,

That sounds good.  I think I will take the heavy, lights and missile troops ( all on the same base ) and put 14 figures on the heavy base, 10 on the light troop base ,8 for the missile base and 5 for the Skirmishers. This way you can tell from a distance what troop are where on the table.
    I do have this question, how do you form your armies and in the army makeup list what does Mr means, because on the Japanese list , it has a number of only seven base for a Japanese army. To me, that's kind of small to have for a Japanese army of that time. How do you figure out the cost and how to have more bases in your army. Again, another stupid question.?

Bob51451

steve_holmes_11

Quote from: Bob51451 on 27 September 2021, 01:49:53 PM
Hi Steve,

That sounds good.  I think I will take the heavy, lights and missile troops ( all on the same base ) and put 14 figures on the heavy base, 10 on the light troop base ,8 for the missile base and 5 for the Skirmishers. This way you can tell from a distance what troop are where on the table.
    I do have this question, how do you form your armies and in the army makeup list what does Mr means, because on the Japanese list , it has a number of only seven base for a Japanese army. To me, that's kind of small to have for a Japanese army of that time. How do you figure out the cost and how to have more bases in your army. Again, another stupid question.?

Bob51451

I'm afraid I don't know anything about Impetus lists.
My dip into the rules was Basic Impetus, where lists were either fixed format, or mainly fixed with a couple of alternates.
Between 7 and 9 elements seemed typical for all the "armies".

My impression was the "full fat" Impetus used rather larger forces.

I hope one of the others here can assist.