LOF for guns and Infantry profile

Started by AJ at the Bank, 02 September 2021, 07:45:04 PM

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AJ at the Bank

Apologies if raised before - but 2 quick related queries please -

(1) Profile list on p8 confirms Infantry as Low Profile, yet Errata Visibility amendment for p14 removes 'troops on foot' from the list of those units with Low Profiles. Am guessing infantry are still Low Profile though?

(2) 2nd paragraph in LOF rules (p35) states that "...guns may fire over troops on foot, command units and dug-in units when the target is a vehicle."
Q : Application of this rule allows guns (AT, AA & Inf, guns) using direct fire to shoot at vehicles ....but they cannot be shot back at by those vehicles if there are infantry in front of the guns.
This leads to the infantry in front being shot at (to clear the path) ....while the guns go untargeted.
We had this situation in our last game (lots of infantry and AT guns vs tanks) ...where the guns could pick off the enemy whilst being effectively invulnerable to the tanks....as infantry units constantly moved in front of them to block LOF.

This rules does make gun units last longer....and there are listing limits to control how many guns can be fielded - but this seems an oddity?

Thanks     
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fred.

1) Infantry are NOT low profile. The errata removes that rule from them - they really don't need it

2) I'm pretty sure this is just for guns firing over friendly infantry. Enemies can shoot over / through enemy infantry at other targets.
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AJ at the Bank

Thanks Fred - appreciate the view.

1) Infantry are not Low Profile - wow. I guess the list on p8 needs an update then....but when you say 'they dont need it' - what do you mean please?

2) Is your interpretation of this rule a House Rule please?   Im looking to understand if the Rulebook is correct in not allowing guns to be targeted when infantry are in the way (friendly or otherwise).

Your rule is - 
(a) Guns permitted overhead LOF (against vehicles) for friendly units only - presume doesn't apply to vehicles firing too?
(b) Enemy can shoot over/through enemy infantry to fire at other targets, even if firer is not a vehicle and target not a vehicle? 
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fred.

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 03 September 2021, 06:30:44 AM
Thanks Fred - appreciate the view.

1) Infantry are not Low Profile - wow. I guess the list on p8 needs an update then....but when you say 'they dont need it' - what do you mean please?

2) Is your interpretation of this rule a House Rule please?   Im looking to understand if the Rulebook is correct in not allowing guns to be targeted when infantry are in the way (friendly or otherwise).

Your rule is -  
(a) Guns permitted overhead LOF (against vehicles) for friendly units only - presume doesn't apply to vehicles firing too?
(b) Enemy can shoot over/through enemy infantry to fire at other targets, even if firer is not a vehicle and target not a vehicle?  

1) Infantry with Low Profile became pretty un-killable - they have a lot of hits per stand.

2) Not a house rule, my reading of the rules
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Big Insect

The 'low-profile' status of Infantry units was removed in subsequent Errata, as this is already built into the existing Infantry unit qualities as standard

With regards to Guns - some 'guns' are specifically designated as Low Profile - this includes smaller AT guns (not the likes of PaK88's, for example) and some smaller Infantry Guns (as used often by airborne troops) all others are targetable over intervening Infantry.

The designation of Infantry as not specifically being Low Profile, is a rules/game-play mechanism.

Thanks

Mark
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AJ at the Bank

Thanks Mark - very helpful.

Is there a list of which guns can be be targeted despite intervening infantry please?
Cheers
AJ
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Big Insect

No - as it is the majority that can be targetted

The guns that cannot be targeted are:
1) smaller AT guns (so there about 2 that can - the German 88 and some massive Italian thing I can never remember)
2) smaller airborne infantry support guns

Cheers
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Mark think you are thinking of thge Italoian 90mm AA there. I suspect the 17pdr and US towed 3" shoukld aslo be able to be so targeted.
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AJ at the Bank

Thank you both -
May I suggest the following list for clarification then :

CAN be targeted -
AT Guns :
Germany : 75mm Pak 41
Germany : 88mm Pak 43/41
UK : 17pdr
Russia : 85mm M1939 AT/AA
Russia : 100mm M1944

AA Guns :
Italian : 90/53 AA/AT
Germany : 5cm Flak 41
Germany : 105mm Flak 38
Germany : 88mm Flak 18/36/37/41
Germany : 128mm Flak 40
USA : 90mm M1/M2 AA/AT

Howitzers, Field guns &  Infantry Guns CAN be targeted, except for - 
Japan : 70mm field gun (type 92)
Chinese : 75mm field guns
USA/UK : 75mm pack howitzer (M1/M1A1)
Germany : 75mm le IG 18
Germany : 75mm Geb G 36 Mountain gun
Russia : 76mm Mountain / Regimental guns

Your thoughts please?
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Big Insect

Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 September 2021, 05:11:06 PM
Mark think you are thinking of thge Italoian 90mm AA there. I suspect the 17pdr and US towed 3" shoukld aslo be able to be so targeted.

Neither are classified as 'light AT guns' IMHO Ian. So they can be targetted.
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Big Insect

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 06 September 2021, 01:12:21 PM
Thank you both -
May I suggest the following list for clarification then :

CAN be targeted -
AT Guns :
Germany : 75mm Pak 41
Germany : 88mm Pak 43/41
UK : 17pdr
Russia : 85mm M1939 AT/AA
Russia : 100mm M1944

AA Guns :
Italian : 90/53 AA/AT
Germany : 5cm Flak 41
Germany : 105mm Flak 38
Germany : 88mm Flak 18/36/37/41
Germany : 128mm Flak 40
USA : 90mm M1/M2 AA/AT

Howitzers, Field guns &  Infantry Guns CAN be targeted, except for - 
Japan : 70mm field gun (type 92)
Chinese : 75mm field guns
USA/UK : 75mm pack howitzer (M1/M1A1)
Germany : 75mm le IG 18
Germany : 75mm Geb G 36 Mountain gun
Russia : 76mm Mountain / Regimental guns

Your thoughts please?

As stated AJ - I'm not producing a list of those that can be targeted, as the original definition is (IMHO) adequate.
NB: the PaK41 is most certainly not targettable.

If you want to use such a list that is fine by me - but it is not official.

Thanks
Mark
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

AJ at the Bank

Thanks Mark

Unfortunately, is precisely to clear up such queries on which guns would be on a list of guns which cannot be targeted within 'smaller AT guns and smaller airborne infantry support guns' why im asking.
If easier to list those that can be targeted - thats what im trying to do.

For example : The the 75mm Pak 41 is almost exactly the same dimensions as the 17 pdr (c4.5m barrel ...5 crew etc). So why not both in the 'Can target' group?

Im sure you see the issue?
Thanks
A
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Ithoriel

Quote from: AJ at the Bank on 06 September 2021, 02:43:52 PM

For example : The the 75mm Pak 41 is almost exactly the same dimensions as the 17 pdr (c4.5m barrel ...5 crew etc). So why not both in the 'Can target' group?

17pdr is just under man height, PaK 41 is just over waist height.

Besides, the BKC rules are looking to model the effect of the item on the battlefield, not just it's dimensions.

The groups I've played BKC with have been more than happy to adopt the Douglas Bader approach to rules - "Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men." :)
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AJ at the Bank

06 September 2021, 03:23:11 PM #13 Last Edit: 06 September 2021, 03:42:59 PM by AJ at the Bank
Thank you - This is helpful guidance.

I'll drop the 75mm pak 41 from the list then.

The groups i've played BKC with have been keen to understand how to select units / tactics under the guidance/rules that apply to them.
I.e. Do you put your AT gun behind an infantry shield or not?
In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king.