Polist 1st Armoured

[Orcs]

Currently my 20mm forces for Chain of Command  do not have any unit insignia on their vehicles.  I currently have a nominal British force for North West Europe.

A friend pointed out how nice the Polish 1st Armoured insignia were.  Always one for liking to field the unusual I have been thinking about converting my "British" to Polish 1st Armoured.  Having done a little research it would seem that the Polish were supplied British weapons and uniforms and tanks.  I have ordered some suitable decals from PSC.

I have found sufficient evidence that they used all the standard British vehicles and also had Sherman M4A1 (76)

The one thing I cannot find out is if they used Churchills.  They certainly trained on them as there are photos, but they use them in North West Europe?

So does the hive mind have any info

[Raider4]

This page suggests not (although the Czechs did). You can use Cromwells though.

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Don't think the Czechs had any Churchills, they were Cromwell/Firefly or may be Challenger equiped like 7th Armoured. I suspect that the 76mm ones were in the Polish Armoued units in Italy, where troops were in mid 45 2 75mm, 1 Firefly, 1 76mm Sherman

[Raider4]

Fireflies in Italy? I always thought they were NWE only?

[fsn]

Sherman Firefly of the New Zealand 4th Armored Brigade in Italy, converted from the M4A4 (Sherman Mk. VC)


Gun Churchills used by the Tank Brigades in NW Europe - e.g. 6th Guards, 34th.  1st Polish Armoured Division used Shermans and Cromwells.

[Raider4]

Sherman Firefly of the New Zealand 4th Armored Brigade in Italy, converted from the M4A4 (Sherman Mk. VC)

Every day's a school day. Ta.

. . . where troops were in mid 45 2 75mm, 1 Firefly, 1 76mm Sherman

Bet the logistics guys loved that!

[fsn]

Firefly tanks of the South African Pretoria Regiment, Italy 1944

[Jemima Fawr]

The 1st Polish Armoured Division in NW Europe initially used Sherman V plus Sherman Vc Firefly, with Cromwells being used by the Armoured Recce Regiment. 

From December 1944 onward they completely converted from Sherman V to Sherman IIa (M4A1 76W), being the only 'Commonwealth' formation in NW Europe to use the 76mm gun.  The only Sherman V remaining when they went back into action in March 1945 were senior command and OP tanks.  They were meant to have handed in their Fireflies, but held onto them, with quite a few being replaced by Sherman Ic Hybrid Firefly.  The Armoured Recce regt may also have received some Challenger 17pdr tanks, but that's not clear.

In Italy the 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade curiously never received any Sherman IIa when almost everyone else in Italy did (except the Canadians).  They did however receive two Sherman Ib (M4 105) per squadron from lroughly August 1944 onward, with each Squadron HQ receiving two (filling the 3rd and 4th tank slots in the SHQ).  Every 'Commonwealth' Sherman squadron in Italy received the pair of 105mm tanks.  In 1945 the 2nd Armoured Brigade, having never received 76mm tanks, finally received Fireflies at a ratio of one per Troop.

The 1st Czechoslovak Armoured Brigade was completely equipped with Cromwells (later supplemented by Challenger) and never used Churchills, though the Churchill-equipped 7 RTR was briefly under command during the Siege of Dunkirk in late 1944 and left their redundant Churchills behind when they converted to Crocodiles.  Hence, Churchills appear on the Czech strength returns, but were never actually operated by the Czechs.

[Orcs]

THanks for the info Mark,  I have just read your two interesting posts on the Churchill on your blog

[Jemima Fawr]

THanks for the info Mark,  I have just read your two interesting posts on the Churchill on your blog

Tidy! 

[holdfast]

The Recce Regiment of 1st Polish Armoured didn't initially have any Fieflies so they were assigned a Company of Tank Destroyers. They appeared to give a platoon to each Recce Company, which would make sense.

[Jemima Fawr]

The Recce Regiment of 1st Polish Armoured didn't initially have any Fieflies so they were assigned a Company of Tank Destroyers. They appeared to give a platoon to each Recce Company, which would make sense.

Yes, that's right.  The 10th Mounted Rifles (the Polish armoured recce regiment) were meant to receive Challenger as their 17pdr tank, but found themselves firmly at the back of the queue.  The three British armoured recce regiments in NW Europe finally received their Challengers in late August or early September 1944, but the Poles didn't receive any until 1945!  There is at least one positively-identified photo of a Challenger belonging to the 10th Mounted Rifles, but it isn't clear if they were delivered in time to see much (if any) action.

The 10th Mounted Rifles were frequently grouped with the 10th Dragoons (motor battalion with halftracks and carriers) and the two SP 17pdr Batteries of the divisional AT Regiment under the command of Colonel Zgorelski (CO of 10th Dragoons) as a 'fast group', which became the division's de facto third brigade.  Each battery had 12x M10c (three Troops of four) and they'd be distributed between the 10th Mounted Rifles and 10th Dragoons on a mission-tasked basis.

[Ariete]

Currently my 20mm forces for Chain of Command  do not have any unit insignia on their vehicles.  I currently have a nominal British force for North West Europe.

A friend pointed out how nice the Polish 1st Armoured insignia were.  Always one for liking to field the unusual I have been thinking about converting my "British" to Polish 1st Armoured.  Having done a little research it would seem that the Polish were supplied British weapons and uniforms and tanks.  I have ordered some suitable decals from PSC.

I have found sufficient evidence that they used all the standard British vehicles and also had Sherman M4A1 (76)

The one thing I cannot find out is if they used Churchills.  They certainly trained on them as there are photos, but they use them in North West Europe?

So does the hive mind have any info

Shermans and then Cromwells only but they also used some Covenanter Bridgelayers!

[Jemima Fawr]

Oh and coming back to Fireflies in Italy; the 1st, 6th and 6th South African Armoured Divisions started receiving Sherman IIa (M4A1 76W) from late July 1944 onward, due to the lack of Fireflies in theatre.  By late 1944 they were almost completely equipped with Sherman IIa and the 7th Armoured Brigade also started receiving some.  The Canadians, New Zealanders and Poles didn't receive any, however.  Consequently, when Fireflies finally arrived in Italy during October 1944 they first went to the 5th Canadian Armoured Division, followed by the 1st Canadian and 4th New Zealand Armoured Brigades in November 1944 and the 2nd Polish Armoured Brigade in January 1945.  Some Fireflies also trickled down to the formations who already had Sherman IIa, especially in 1945.  7th Armoured Brigade ended up with a curious three-way split of 75mm, 76mm and 17pdr tanks in the same Troops (plus the pair of 105mm tanks in the SHQ!), which must have been a logistical headache for someone...

As an aside, the lack of Fireflies in Italy was concerning enough for the British Army to send the first available Valentine SP 17pdr (more commonly known by its post-war name of 'Archer') to Italy instead of NW Europe, where the first ones were deployed in September/October 1944 (November 1944 in NW Europe).

[ciaphas]

Of possible interest
https://www.flamesofwar.com/Portals/0/Documents/Briefings/Polish-1st-Armoured-Division.pdf