Berlin 1980s British OOB

Started by Big Insect, 02 March 2021, 10:21:13 AM

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Raider4

No Ferrets? Must have been Ferrets.

Also Saracen or Humber Pig APCs? Maybe even Saladin?

I presume the armoured squadron had Mk. 5 Centurions (20-pdr) at that time?
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sultanbev

Photo hear of Centurion in Berlin in 1961:
https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-british-centurion-tank-during-a-fight-exercise-in-berlin-spandau-56890219.html
and
"The 4th Royal Tank Regiment was in the British sector of West Berlin to provide armored support for the 3000 British infantry stationed there. Since 1945 and with the division of Berlin the US, France and England administer sectors of West Berlin and station armed forces there as a deterrent Soviet aggression. On August 22, 1961 the British 4th Royal Tank Regiment was one of the military units stationed there. This is the day of the first casualty of the crisis when a woman fell to her death from a window while trying to escape to the West. Tensions mounted and one of the British tanks standing ready for any action was the Centurion Mk. 5 of 10 Troop, C Squadron, commanded by Sgt. "Jake" Jacobs. His tank had several distinguishing features. First the main gun had a "Type A" barrel when most Mk.5's had a "Type B". The paint color of overall US Olive Drab was very unusual for a British tank in Berlin at this time. Keeping with 4th RTR tradition of using the letter "D" to name their tanks "Diehard" is painted on the track guard stowage bins. Keeping with another tradition started in WWI when a Chinese businessman covered the cost to have a tank built, there is a "Chinese Eye" painted on the front face of the turret stowage bins.

Here is the actual link:http://www.crossroadsdiecast.com/hm46.html";
and link for this article and couple of photos, showing 20pdr gun Mk.5
https://bfg-locations.editboard.com/t151-centurions-tanks-in-service-in-berlin-area
https://servimg.com/view/16304333/14
https://servimg.com/view/16304333/13

Video here:
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/VLVA807GJXZU80R6MMI89H8J3QVSD-GERMANY-BRITISH-ARMOURED-EXERCISE-IN-WEST-BERLIN/query/CENTURION
Some great footage in there! Infantry with SLR, 3.5" M20 and Brens, Centurion with extra seats for 2 infantry tank riders.
Also shows Ferret with turret MG, can't find APCs though.

By 1962 the tank squadron had Centurion Mk.5/1, which has the uparmoured glacis plate.


Raider4

Cool, thanks for that, especially the video. Good stuff.
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sultanbev

Some interesting details here:
https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=261077

"The Berlin Brigade was able to equip itself with a variety of vehicles not normally seen in British Army service (not least as it had its own budget)such as Unimogs used by the Infantry battalions, seen in Bronze Green, VW minibuses, VW Beetles and even the Munga field cars, used by, amongst others the Royal Military police and finished in gloss black."

Big Insect

Quote from: Raider4 on 04 March 2021, 07:47:22 PM
Eh? What? No Scimitars in Berlin, or any other member of the CVR(T) family.

Oh yes - lots of Scimitars and Sultans and Spartans, but no Scorpions
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Big Insect

There were Ferrets as well and they appear to have lasted into late 1980's - being used for liaison and run-around and one suspects they be drafted into use in an emergency.
But from the blogs I've found ex-Berlin Brigade service personnel (from the 80's) say that the Recce function was carried out by the FV432's with the Rarden turret and the Scimiters, not the Ferrets.

There are also images of Fox armoured cars in Berlin Camo - but they appear to have been withdrawn due to stability issues when the Rarden was fired. It was their turrets that went to convert some of the FV432s I suspect.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

sultanbev

The Berlin Brigade book by Tankograd shows Foxes in service until 1974-1994, they weren't replaced by Scimitars out there. It also shows no photos of any of the CVR(T) family, and I've never seen any of the Berlin camo on CVR(T) series.

Mark

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When were Vickers phased out?
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Big Insect

Quote from: sultanbev on 04 March 2021, 10:46:10 PM
The Berlin Brigade book by Tankograd shows Foxes in service until 1974-1994, they weren't replaced by Scimitars out there. It also shows no photos of any of the CVR(T) family, and I've never seen any of the Berlin camo on CVR(T) series.

Mark


The OOBs state that Scimiters were used - see below  :D

https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php?title=NATO_OOB_1989

3. UK Berlin Infantry Brigade - is an independent unit from the BAOR: 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan
a. 1st Bn, The Royal Highland Fusiliers: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
b. 1st Bn, The Queen's Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
c. 1st Bn, The Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regt: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
d. 1 Armoured Squadron: 17 Chieftain, 1 Sultan, 1 Spartan, and 1 Ferret
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Ok to answer an earlier question the klast Vickers Guns were removed in 1968, but that was from the Marines. Also I rather suspect that the 4 rifle company organisation was long gone by 1958 but remained in the ORBAT as a wartime intent rather than a reality. By 1945 most battalions only had 3 companies + support company due to manpower shortages.
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Raider4

Quote from: Big Insect on 05 March 2021, 12:18:52 AM
The OOBs state that Scimiters were used - see below  :D

https://wiki.baloogancampaign.com/index.php?title=NATO_OOB_1989

That goes against everything I've ever heard about the Berlin Brigade - it's always been no CVR(T) in Berlin.

Another OOB: https://www.fireandfury.com/orbats/modcwbritish.pdf.
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Lord Speedy of Leighton

Wonder how it compares to the modern shrunk armed forces...
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sultanbev

Quote from: mad lemmey on 05 March 2021, 08:29:05 AM
Wonder how it compares to the modern shrunk armed forces...

Back in 2017 it took us 6 months to raise an infantry battalion battlegroup for deployment to Estonia, consisting of 4 tanks and about 700 personnel. I let readers work out the ramifications of that, but I would say that having only 4 tanks would at least make it difficult for the Russian drones to find them in the border forests.....

Big Insect

I found this on another blog - might be of interest if painting up the Camo:

According to the Tank Museum the correct colour references for Berlin Brigade camouflage using the German RAL system are as follows:

White = RAL9010,

Blue-grey = RAL7031 (Humrol no. 21)

Brown = RAL8025 (Humrol no. 62)


The best source on the Berlin Brigade is the Tankograd book `British Infantry Brigade Berlin (which I am trying to source) which has a large number of photographs of AFVs in Berlin urban camouflage scheme.

However, here is the colour mix for ICI polyurethane spray paint for Berlin camo:

1. RAL 7031 Blue-grey:-
White 59%
Ferrite yellow 6.5%
Permanent blue 2.5%
Blue-black 32%

2. RAL 8025 Brown:-
Venetian red 33%
Bright yellow 19%
Blue-black 16%
White 32%

It appears that a couple of landrovers in original Berlin camo are in the hands of some historic vehicle enthusiasts
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Big Insect

Link to a couple of Defenders painted up in Berlin Brigade camo: https://hmvf.co.uk/topic/13666-british-berlin-brigade-urban-camo-paint-scheme/

Apparently, the original idea was that the Landrovers were painted up in the scheme at the same size as the armour - but that proved to be really tricky - so it appears to have been scaled down slightly to fit.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.