Berlin 1980s British OOB

Started by Big Insect, 02 March 2021, 10:21:13 AM

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pierre the shy

SPI issued Berlin 85 in the mid 80's using best guess info about the composition of the Warpac forces represented on the game counters. After the fall of the Berlin Wall further information came to light about the Warpac OOB that would have been used (as outlined in the Armor article above).

Some one subsiquently made up a alternative counter set based on the actual OOB but please note that there are a lot of differences between the two counter sets. I played the original game a few times way back and remember the West German polizei units managing to be very robust even when fighting mechanized opponents.
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pierre the shy

And a very well researched 1989 BAOR OOB from the Tanknet forum, including the Berlin Brigade:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf
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Raider4

Quote from: Steve J on 02 March 2021, 05:18:27 PM
I think the Berlin Brigade feature a bit in the Red Storm Rising novel, by Tom Clancy. Years since I read it but I remember it as a great read.

I remember the Americans in Berlin being featured, and then the Brits in West Germany fighing the Soviets. Don't think the Berlin Brigade is mentioned explicitly. And agree, a great read, definitely one of Clancy's best.
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Big Insect

Right ... after much bed-time pondering here is my converted OOB for 10mm CWC (I might also use AK47 sometimes as well):

Original OOB:
UK Berlin Infantry Brigade - is an independent unit from the BAOR: Brigade Command - 4 Sultan, 4 Spartan
a. 1st Bn, The Royal Highland Fusiliers: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
b. 1st Bn, The Queen's Regiment: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
c. 1st Bn, The Duke of Edinburgh's Royal Regt: 71 FV432, 4 Sultan, 7 Ferret, 8 Scimitar, 8 81mm Mortar, 24 Milan
d. 1 Armoured Squadron: 17 Chieftain, 1 Sultan, 1 Spartan, and 1 Ferret

OOB 1989 translated into a CWC force:
1 x CO -  1 x Sultan + 1 x Spartan (APC)
1 x Ferret (Recce)   

3 x HQ – 1 x Sultan
3 x Ferret (Recce)
3 x Scimitar (armoured support - I might field these as Recce Support)
16 x FV432 (4 x 4) including 4 x FV432 with Rarden turret conversions
24 x Infantry bases + CG upgrades
2 x 81mm mortar + crew
3 x Milan + crew

1 x HQ -  1 x Sultan +1 x Spartan (APC)
1 x Ferret (Recce)
4 x Chieftain MBT

As the FV432's are APCs - I'm carrying 2 infantry elements in each of the 'normal' ones. That would equate to 24 infantry bases (as it excludes any being carried in the Rarden turret conversions) - is that too many?
However, I also need to include the 3 x Milan Teams or should they be in the Spartan APCs?
Likewise, are the mortars carried within the FV432s - alongside an infantry base and is 2 bases too much (1 might work)?

My traditional approach to the conversion is to divide roughly by 3 - but that would give me 6 Milans which seems a lot?
As this is primarily an urban combat force I might well as 1 x Sniper to the CO formation.

Also, there also appear to be no Landrovers, which seems odd to me.

I am thinking of using the Falkland range British Infantry - although I suspect that in Berlin the infantry would probably not have a great need for the big back-packs.

Ideally, I'd have liked to have had the MBTs as Centurions rather than Chieftains ... but not sure I can then have the FV432's with the Rarden turrets ... more research required there.

All thoughts welcome.

Cheers
Mark



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Lord Speedy of Leighton

Int Corps had Mercedes and Opel cars and vans...

Timecast AFVs are perfect BTW, I use them with Pendraken infantry.
Only a few if the infantry have packs, most dropped theirs when the action started...
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Big Insect

04 March 2021, 09:59:00 AM #21 Last Edit: 04 March 2021, 11:43:07 AM by Big Insect
Interesting Lemmey - thanks

I have found an interesting blog on the Berlin Brigade - the comments section at the bottom is very interesting:
http://sparkerswargames.blogspot.com/2015/11/some-notes-on-british-berlin-brigade-of.html

Looks like I might need to replace some of the Milan teams with Wombats (might go for 1 Milan and 2 Wombat) - I rather like the RCLRs myself - and at close quarter street fighting they might be a better option anyway - being very effective against buildings apparently - although I had read that Milans were also very capable of taking out enemy occupied building (?)
There also appear to be some landrovers - some used to transport the Wombat teams - which makes sense.

Also the Ferrets were used more for liaison and 'running around' and that the Scimitars were the primary Recce vehicles (& replaced the earlier Fox A/Cs which were withdrawn due to instability issues).  At this 'skirmish' level I'll run the Scimitars as Recce Support, to allow them to take on a more offensive role as necessary.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Big Insect

Quote from: pierre the shy on 03 March 2021, 08:34:37 AM
And a very well researched 1989 BAOR OOB from the Tanknet forum, including the Berlin Brigade:

https://www.orbat85.nl/documents/BAOR-July-1989.pdf


Agreed - this is really helpful. Berlin Brigade can be found on Page 109:

But there is also this interesting note on the unique composition of the Berlin Bigrade Infantry Bns (Page 110):

Note on Inf Bns: All three Bns assigned to the Berlin Bde had a unique organization for their Sp Coys.
The Recce Pls each had 8x FV721 FOX CVR (W).
The AT Pl was equipped with 6x WOMBAT and 6x MILAN all in LAND ROVERS FFR.
The Mortar Pl had 8x 81mm MORTARS also transported in LAND ROVERS FFR.
Finally each Bn had 4x FV432 with a Rarden Turret plus 2x FV432 and a FV434 ARV.

Which answers my question about transport for the AT PLs and Mortars  - so I'll need some Landrover FFRs.
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Mortars were in dedicated 432's and normally operated in pairs attatched to the companies. Mortar platoon commander, together with the DS battery commander and an ALO if it had one formed the Fire Support Cell, each rifle company would have an FOO with it. A company would normally be cross attatched with a tank troop swaped in and an infantry platoon attatched to the tank squadron. I would therefore use 1 432 per platoon, rather than 1 for 2. MIlan sectiions had 4 firing posts in 2 432's. The Strikers were the Btn CO's reserve, and could be substituted with Milan MCT as at times all the swingfire vehicles were under RA command.
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Big Insect

Thanks Ian

Is this 'normal' UK deployment or Berlin?

What is interesting from the blog (and the OOB) is that they both state that in Berlin the Milan/Wombat teams and mortars were in Landrovers?
'He could have lived a risk-free, moneyed life, but he preferred to whittle away his fortune on warfare.' Xenophon, The Anabasis

This communication has been written by a dyslexic person. If you have any trouble with the meaning of any of the sentences or words, please do not be afraid to ask for clarification. Remember that dyslexics are often high-level conceptualisers who provide "out of the box" thinking.

Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

Quote from: Big Insect on 04 March 2021, 01:23:44 PM
What is interesting from the blog (and the OOB) is that they both state that in Berlin the Milan/Wombat teams and mortars were in Landrovers?
I quoted the standard "offical" methods for BAOR. It is possible that Berlin was differnt, and LWB Rovers could have been used in which case they would have a trailer . Check the Airmobile Infantry Btn organisation. Cross attatchment was doctrine but "slick" companies could be used. It would be down to circumstances. There was considerable flexibility in the tactics used. One interesting point is that 6 105's were consiered to be equilvalent to 2 81mm mortars in fire effect.

Sorry about previous breif reply, feilding 2 calls - one canceling the Covid testing - school has found enough staff.
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Raider4

Quote from: Big Insect on 04 March 2021, 09:59:00 AM
At this 'skirmish' level I'll run the Scimitars as Recce Support, to allow them to take on a more offensive role as necessary.

Eh? What? No Scimitars in Berlin, or any other member of the CVR(T) family.
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Raider4

04 March 2021, 07:57:41 PM #28 Last Edit: 04 March 2021, 08:01:06 PM by Raider4
Quote from: Big Insect on 04 March 2021, 09:20:01 AM
Ideally, I'd have liked to have had the MBTs as Centurions rather than Chieftains ... but not sure I can then have the FV432's with the Rarden turrets ... more research required there.

No idea when they changed from Centurion - somewhere around 1970 I'd guess - but it would certainly be long before the FV432/30 came about.

Info available about the Berlin Brigade seems to all be concentrated in the '80s. I'm interested in around the time the wall went up, but have so far found nothing online :(.

Also, there's what looks like an FV432/30 parked alongside the M5 just before exit 17 going northwards. Advertising a paintball 'park' I think.
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sultanbev

in August 1961 the Berlin Infantry Brigade Group had:
1st Battalion Kings Regiment
1st Battalion Welch Regiment
1st Battalion Durham Light Infantry
B Sqn, 14/20th Hussars (replaced November 1960 by C Sqn, 4th RTR
38th Berlin Squadron, Royal Engineers
229th Signals Squadron

A 1958 Infantry Battalion had:
Bttn HQ: 64 men inc 6 man intelligence section, 7 man sniper section, 1x No.62 VHF radio, 2x No.31 radios
Medical Group: 21 men (also form HQ defence platoon?)
HQ Company: CHQ: 14 men, 2x No.31 radios
Signals Platoon: 55 men, 2x No. 62 VHF radios, 3x No.31 radios, 6x spare No.88A radios, 1x spare No.88B radio, 3x telephone exchanges
Admin Platoon: 88 men
Mortar Platoon: 33 men, 6x 3" mortars, 3x No.31 radios, 6x No.88B radios
MMG Platoon: 35 men, 6x Vickers MMG, 5x No.31 radios
AT Platoon: 6x 120mm MOBAT, 28 men, 1x No.31 radio
Assault Pioneer Section: 8 men

F echelson: 16x 1/4t trucks, 12x 1t GS trucks, 1x 1t APC, 1x 3t lorry
A echelon: 1x 1/4t truck, 1x 1t water tanker, 12x 3t lorries
B echelon: 1x 1/4t truck, 2x 1t trucks, 4x 3t lorries

4 Rifle Companies@ CHQ: 11 men, 2x Bren, 1x 2" mortar, 2x No.88 radios, 1x 1/4t truck & trailier, 1x 1t APC & trailer,
3 platoons@ 36 men, 2x 2" mortars with 18x smoke, 2x 3.5" M20 bazooka@ 4 rounds, 3 Bren, 2x Energa 73 rifle grenade launchers

In CWC it would look something like this:
Bttn HQ CV9 (1/4t truck)
4 Companies@
CHQ CV8 (infantry)
3 infantry stands (Bren, 3.5" RL)

1 Support Company:
CHQ CV8 (3t truck)
1x 3" mortar stand
1x Vickers MMG stand
1x 120mm MOBAT stand
1x 1/4t truck (gun tow)
2x 1/4t truck (transport for mortars and MMG)

What variations the Berlin Brigade at the time had I don't know. And whether 1961 TOE was different from 1958 TOE is another question I haven't found the answer to yet.