Template lists for new Modern ranges

Started by Leon, 10 November 2020, 01:05:37 AM

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John Cook

Quote from: Sunray on 26 January 2021, 11:32:11 AM
Two key points to note:

1. This is not a generic Arab-Israeli range- it is tightly focused on 1973  October Yom Kippur War.
2. Be aware of the dichotomy between the PLO and the PLA. The former is the fadayeen, the latter are regular. There is lively debate on their respective 1973 role. Shimoni (1990, pp340-343) argues that PLO  did little other than fire a few rockets and that PLA although reasonably trained/equipted was never entrusted with anything more than  support duties . Arab sources such as Abu Lyad/Rouleau (1978,p120-126) argues that PLO launched 100 +attacks and PLA was part of commando teams in the Golan and rear Sinai.

Syrian figures in beret/field cap will proxy well for PLA. After 1973 they were de facto part of Syrian army.

9 during the October war, Syrian figures with the odd beret/cap will proxy well.

I see.  So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973  October Yom Kippur War range."

Makes you wonder who's in charge.   :)

I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War but I do know the distinction between the PLO and the PLA and I would only point out that Orcs asked specifically for "PLO type figures in headscarves. with assorted weapons.", he didn't ask for PLA.

A generic Arab insurgent range would be very useful for a 'loosely focused' expansion to cover ME/Arabian Peninsular conflicts generally. 

Sunray

Quote from: ianrs54 on 26 January 2021, 02:16:28 PM
But the Russians did find the 23/4 useful in street fighting in Checnia (sp) in the 90's.

The 23/4 units were only deployed in the debacle that was Grozny because no Russian tank/AFV had the elevatin for roof top FIBUA. No argument about the power of their 4x 12.7 mm supressive fire. But they were deployed with T72s , Mi 24s, and at one stage even Spetsnaz!  Even so the 23/4s suffered heavy losses.

Now, you are an Egyptian 23/4 crew on the road to Suez City. Your training has been to engage low flying aircraft. You are ordered to delay IDF advance. Two jeeps come down the road. You fire off 4,000 rds in 60 seconds.  The first jeep explodes, the second engages with its fifty. The 1A7SRD disentagrates into the commander's face.

You are buttoned up and blind. Fifty AP are bouncing around the vehicle. Your driver is dead.  The commander panics and opens the hatch, in drops an M26.........

Sunray

26 January 2021, 05:09:28 PM #32 Last Edit: 26 January 2021, 05:48:50 PM by Sunray
Quote from: John Cook on 26 January 2021, 04:38:56 PM
I see.  So when Leon in his OP said "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon to cover the Arab-Israeli conflicts and then onwards into the Cold War with US, Soviets, etc." what he really meant was "We're going to be expanding our post-war/modern offering soon with a tightly focused 1973  October Yom Kippur War range."

Makes you wonder who's in charge.   :)

I've no interest in the Yom Kippur War .


In short yes- Phil and I have the figures template from Leon, we follow the brief.  That's where it stays until Leon says different. R and D of a new range is not cheap, and starts with a core of mainstream figures.  If Yom Kippur  mainstream generates sales, no doubt Leon will consider requests like PLO and expand the range. That]s his call.  When Leon and I discussed the core range,  he  sanctioned 1973 IDF, Egyption,and Syrian.  The minor role of Jordanian, PLA, and PLO in 1973 excluded them. Personally, I argued for Cold War first, but Leon's in charge.

  If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum.  As you admit you have no interest in the range.   :)
 

fsn

In 1973 I cut out all the news articles and magazine articles I could find.  :D

In 2013 I dumped them.    :'(

For me 1973 would be a troop/platoon level game - based around a troop of tanks and a platoon of infantry in their vehicles. Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?   :-\ 

I suppose it's a bit different if you're working at battalion/brigade level.

I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.

*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.
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pierre the shy

Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM
Something like the 23/4 would be a interesting curiosity, but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?   :- 

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fsn

Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
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Raider4

Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM
. . . but I don't think I would field it as often as an M60* .. or that other one the Israeli's used ... what was that now?   :- 

M50 or M51 Super Sherman?

fsn

Lord Oik of Runcorn (You may refer to me as Milord Oik)

Oik of the Year 2013, 2014; Prize for originality and 'having a go, bless him', 2015
3 votes in the 2016 Painting Competition!; 2017-2019 The Wilderness years
Oik of the Year 2020; 7 votes in the 2021 Painting Competition
11 votes in the 2022 Painting Competition (Double figures!)
2023 - the year of Gerald:
2024 Painting Competition - Runner-Up!

Sunray

Quote from: fsn on 26 January 2021, 06:10:38 PM


I can see the logic of confining the range to 1973, using that as a base to expand. Better to do something small well, than something large badly.

*However, if you told me the 23/4 was being produced, I'd buy at least 2.

Quite.  Leon knows the market.  If you start a WW2 range, you start with Brits and Germans, then USA and Soviets.  Once they make a return in sales, you expand to perhaps Polish and French.

And yes. the Pendraken 23/4 is in the pipeline. Mark can sort a CWC rule as regards smallarms fire.

John Cook

Quote from: Sunray on 26 January 2021, 05:09:28 PM

If this is a personal petty grudge against me, it has no place on this forum.  As you admit you have no interest in the range.   :)
 

I'm just confused by seemingly contradictory messages.  No, I don't have any interest in a Yom Kippur War range but you told me in December, in the context of an M38 model, that you "don't do Arab-Israeli" either. :D     

Leon

As someone said above, it's easier to pick a specific time point and start your ranges there.  There were some uniform changes before 1973 I believe that would have limited some of the troop types, so we would have needed to double up some of the sculpt lists to cover those.  We tried that with the Korean range but the sales have been limited, so I didn't want to put too much money into this right off the bat.  Yom Kippur is the most requested part of the conflicts so it made sense to start there.
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Lord Kermit of Birkenhead

The other advantage is that most of the stuff used can be transfered to Cold War armies. Also you already have a lot of it. From memory you need to add the M60A1, Walid, BMP, ZSU23/4 and 57, BTR60 and M50 and M51 Shermans (not to sure about M50 for 73) and modify your M3 1/2 Track.
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Sunray

Quote from: Leon on 27 January 2021, 09:39:36 AM
As someone said above, it's easier to pick a specific time point and start your ranges there.  There were some uniform changes before 1973 I believe that would have limited some of the troop types, so we would have needed to double up some of the sculpt lists to cover those.  We tried that with the Korean range but the sales have been limited, so I didn't want to put too much money into this right off the bat.  Yom Kippur is the most requested part of the conflicts so it made sense to start there.

And with the adults in the room, that's good enough for me. My major project revolves around several fictitious states in East Africa. One is a client state of Israel - the other gets support from the Arabs. So whilst not gaming Arab Israeli contact directly, the figures and the AFVs of this range will be purchased in some quantity and on my table. The 41 Commando Korea range already make great Congo style  Mercs, as do the Koreans for militia types.

I also get personal pleasure in assisting Phil create the best range of 10mm modern figures I have ever seen. Worse ways of spending lockdown. :)

Orcs

Would I be righth in thinking, this will be the first 10mm range for the Arab Israeli conflict? If so thats the way to go as thee are a couple 9at least) of other 10mm cold war ranges and you would be competing with them. Better to get a range out that is "exclusive"
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sultanbev

Afraid not, Red3 already do some 10mm Arab-Israeli stuff, including infantry.