End of the tank in the British Army?

[mmcv]

OFC it might be tanks and combat infantry et al are the battleship of 1940, and are about to be relegated to expensive luxuries with minimal combat applications, but I doubt it.

Maybe we should be replacing them with Mobile Drone Platforms supported by lighter armoured vehicles (a la aircraft carrier fleets). Then they can launch a swarm of drones at short notice to respond to the tactical situation on the ground (recon, attack, defense...).

Of course, drones are still pretty big....so that's likely a while off.

We just need to get on with inventing those massive airships of anime/comic fame.

[flamingpig0]

Another article

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/challenger-2-the-wrong-tank-for-the-british-army/

[toxicpixie]

Maybe we should be replacing them with Mobile Drone Platforms supported by lighter armoured vehicles (a la aircraft carrier fleets). Then they can launch a swarm of drones at short notice to respond to the tactical situation on the ground (recon, attack, defense...).

Of course, drones are still pretty big....so that's likely a while off.

We just need to get on with inventing those massive airships of anime/comic fame.

That's a possibility that's been mentioned. Blimps are making a serious comeback for a wide variety of uses and some are already doing that (for "security" and surveillance); it's probably great in COIN ops and low key warfare but in contested airspace I suspect even with all the stealth in the world they'd get nobbled. Maybe not, if you put a lot of effort into the air supremacy arena (more drones to protect the drones!), but...

You can get drones and RPVs in lots of sizes - from Predators down to "toy" ones that have seen extensive combat use; I suspect they'll be brilliant force multipliers and a superb addition to the military tool kit but again just like the attack helicopter made the tank redundant, and the ATGW did, and tanks made infantry obsolete, and artillery and the machine gun and the smart missile means no need for combat infantry, and... they won't remove the need for a heavy armoured, heavy gunned platform with an experienced crew/commander up on the front lines.

Flamingpig0 - interesting that an article from 2018 rehashes the same argument we had thirty years earlier and comes to the same conclusion Midn you it's written by one the people responsible for that conclusion, so I guess it's much the same!

[Sandinista]

I suppose the key point is what role does the UK see itself playing post Brexit, and will tanks be needed in that role? If so where will the money come from, as many people say that the economy has been wrecked by the decision to leave the EU?

Cheers
Ian

[Techno]

I'm worried that Nobby hasn't posted in this thread.

Do you think he's in shock ?

Cheers - Phil

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

No - as far he is concerend the last British tank retired in the early 80's

[Last Hussar]

Somebody want to link me to all the great Viet Nam war tank battles? Which tanks do Isis use? Remind me of the success of tanks in Ulster?

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

There were several tank actions in the final year of the Veinam war, North using T55 and its clones, South a mix of M48 and M41.

[toxicpixie]

Isis have used a variety of ex-Soviet Tanks as well as a number of M1's captured from the Iraqi's.

I don't think western troops have faced them on the ground but heavy armour has proved consistently useful in Afghanistan and Iraq. Nothing multiplies a force like a 60t MBT.

[mmcv]

There were a few Centurions used in Operation Motorman to clear no-go areas in Belfast and Derry. But thankfully tanks weren't used too much.

[Westmarcher]

I like the 'old' Chally 2. I understand it has the reputation for being the most heavily armoured western tank. It certainly did well for young Guy along the road when his tank drove into Basra, got hit by RPGs, 'rocked' and moved on. A BAE(?)/ Rheinmetall partnership is currently bidding for the Chally life extension programme contract, recently releasing a very tasting looking video of a Chally 2 with a new turret mounting a new 130 mm smoothbore gun - a gun that may start to replace the ubiquitous 120mm gun in time. But in my heart I know it is not going to happen due to fiscal constraints.

And that is the main driver for doing away with tanks, not their tactical usefulness. If going into a fight in Europe (and better to fight there than in our own streets and fields), we would rather have a tank in support than not at all. With their joint future tank programme, Germany and France appear to see a need for tanks. Also interesting why the Dutch sold all their tanks but now have a squadron in a German tank battalion. Perhaps it's because you don't need a ship to travel from Moscow to Berlin.

There is no doubt that armoured warfare tactics and the nature of 'tanks' themselves must evolve to meet the challenges of the ever more complicated modern battlefield. Whilst waiting for the Germans, French & Yanks to figure out the shape of future armoured warfare, if we do away with ours, I think we should retain the RTR (even if only in squadron strength), with a few Challies in the meantime as an armoured warfare training and study unit. After all, even if you don't have them, you may still have to fight agin 'em.  But what do I know? I'm just a Horse & Musket man.

[toxicpixie]

Eminently sensible - I can keeping a "training cadre" at maybe battalion strength as part of the Royal Armoured Corps - probably integrated in the US Army, given current issues? Unless Johnson elevates any more Russian mafiosa into the Lords in which case we could integrate with them instead

Maybe test drive Armata assuming it's not still vapourware

[flamingpig0]

I suppose the key point is what role does the UK see itself playing post Brexit, and will tanks be needed in that role?


Cheers
Ian

The special relationship of being  5th wheel to the USA whichever  faction  wins out in November.

[Sandinista]

The special relationship of being  5th wheel to the USA whichever  faction  wins out in November.

I think that relationship is more special to the UK than it is to the USA, especially as they have lost their ease of access to the EU - both politically and economically.

Cheers
Ian

[hammurabi70]

https://rusi.org/publication/rusi-defence-systems/key-armenia-tank-losses-sensors-not-shooters

The end is nigh?

[Orcs]

I seem to remember that the Russian doctrine uring the coldwar, was to put old tanks (T34's) into storage rather than dispose of them. Because in an all out war with NATO they expected to loose most if not all of their Frontline armour in removing the Nato tanks.  However after they had done this they expected NATO to be very very short on Armoured Vehicles and A/T weapons.

When that happened the average squaddie had nothing to effectively stop any tank and they would roll up the unsupported infantry with T34's

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

We did the same with the Cents when Cheiftains came in, and kept upgrading them too

[Matt J]

Israel rolled out its old Sherman's in '73 which had been upgraded. Used behind cents m48s and m60s.

[flamingpig0]

I seem to remember that the Russian doctrine uring the coldwar, was to put old tanks (T34's) into storage rather than dispose of them. Because in an all out war with NATO they expected to loose most if not all of their Frontline armour in removing the Nato tanks.  However after they had done this they expected NATO to be very very short on Armoured Vehicles and A/T weapons.

When that happened the average squaddie had nothing to effectively stop any tank and they would roll up the unsupported infantry with T34's

Apparently during  the Ogaden war in the eighties the Ethiopian had an allied T34 contingent from South Yemen - list writers note!

[Lord Kermit of Birkenhead]

Israel rolled out its old Sherman's in '73 which had been upgraded. Used behind cents m48s and m60s.

Not quite Matt, the Jordanians had Cents and M48's - so to avoid blue on blue kills the Isralies used their M51's.