ECW Dragoon Horseholders

[pierre the shy]

Evening all

Can anyone enlighten me if there is a suitable ECW Dragoon horseholder figure available in one of the C17 ranges?

I see a horse and holder figures in the League of Ausburg range dismounted command group LOA 35, but looks a bit grand for a ECW dragoon, who seem to have been regarded as one step above highwaymen in the 1640's 

Any other ideas spring to mind?

[Westmarcher]

Four (to eight?) possibilities in EC42 - Civilians .....?

https://pendraken.co.uk/renaissance/english-civil-war/

[Ithoriel]

A guy I used to game with used the EC2 standing pikeman with the pike removed. Don't have a picture but hopefully this "artist's impression" gives a flavour of the real thing!

[Leman]

I'm sure I read somewhere recently that horseholders didn't usually dismount, but kept the free horses back, whilst remaining mounted, so that they could be brought more readily up to the dismounted troops when they needed to remount.

[mollinary]

Yes, it is something ACW Guys have been pushing. However, if you take a close look at Okey's Dragoons in the near contemporary Anglia Rediviva representation of Naseby, you will see that the horse holders are dismounted!

Mollinary

[paulr]

Perhaps MAL22 or is the Marlburian uniform and horse furniture too modern?

https://pendraken.co.uk/search/Mal22/

[mollinary]

If you cannot find a suitable Pendraken proxy, then AIM/Minifigs, available from Caliver Books, sell one (Code AECW 12 or 13, I think).  The problem with many of these is that you get one horse per horseholder. This is fine for an aide holding the generals nag, but a Dragoon horse holder really needs four or five horses per holder.

[Leman]

Could the spare (presumably empty-handed) figures be turned into extra standard bearers or pikemen. Can't have too many standards in the ECW.

[mollinary]

Sadly, they have banoliers of powder flasks!

[paulr]

An alternative to horse holders might be a small guard of mounted Dragoons

In FK&P the horse holders are basically are marker showing where the dragoons dismounted. You could also use the same marker to show when the dragoons are mounted, moving the marker with the unit

[Westmarcher]

That could work - touching the dismounted bases means the unit is mounted, separated means that the unit is dismounted.

Whilst we are the subject of 'horse holders,' I'm not a 'horsey person' (Techno?) but I think I would find it hard to hold onto one horse, never mind four (I understand that was the allocation for U.S. ACW cavalry).

I wonder if the horse holders role was more of a keeper's and guardian's role and rather than physically hold on to 4 horses each, the horses' reins were tied to fences, trees, bushes or stakes driven into the ground (you sometimes see stakes included in Horse & Musket era sculpts). If so, the idea of riderless horses being brought forward in an action doesn't seem to work for me. And if this means your horses are more or less static whilst the dismounted troopers roam around at will, should we start incorporating this in rules? For example, what if your dismounted troopers are more than one move away or your horses are captured whilst the main dismounted body is away fighting? Thoughts, anyone?     

[mollinary]

That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!

[pierre the shy]

Thanks for the input. I have found a suitable period specific figure in another manufacturers ecw range...Irregular.

As these are markers was going to use one figure holding several horses per unit 130mm wide unit base. Any more will look too much like a separate unit.

Like Paul l am still looking at basing options but l like the 3 x 40mm sabots in a 130mm wide base best.

[Westmarcher]

That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!

Good stuff. Reassuring to read I'm not alone in my thinking. 

[Leman]

That could work - touching the dismounted bases means the unit is mounted, separated means that the unit is dismounted.

Whilst we are the subject of 'horse holders,' I'm not a 'horsey person' (Techno?) but I think I would find it hard to hold onto one horse, never mind four (I understand that was the allocation for U.S. ACW cavalry).

I wonder if the horse holders role was more of a keeper's and guardian's role and rather than physically hold on to 4 horses each, the horses' reins were tied to fences, trees, bushes or stakes driven into the ground (you sometimes see stakes included in Horse & Musket era sculpts). If so, the idea of riderless horses being brought forward in an action doesn't seem to work for me. And if this means your horses are more or less static whilst the dismounted troopers roam around at will, should we start incorporating this in rules? For example, what if your dismounted troopers are more than one move away or your horses are captured whilst the main dismounted body is away fighting? Thoughts, anyone?     

OOh yes please, I love having more and more put into rules so that there is even more to forget. Thank god for Dan Mersey!

[mollinary]

OOh yes please, I love having more and more put into rules so that there is even more to forget. Thank god for Dan Mersey!

Hi Leman, I actually entirely agree with you, simplicity is admirable, and usually makes for a much mor3 fun game.  . If it wasn't for the example of Okey's Dragoons at Naseby I would be inclined to say that once Dragoons dismount they can never remount. But Okey's dragoons did. So I went with the simplest concept I could come up with. The horseholder is simply a marker, once placed, you can forget it, it doesn't move. If you want to remount, you go back to it. It is uncomplicated. But it's purpose is to limit the way Wargamers are prone to create super troops out of those who were, in reality, entirely ordinary, by exploiting aspects of the rules. I can think of few (well actually none!) occasions, where Dragoons moved across a battlefield mounting and dismounting at will. Dragoons, and mounted infantry, seem to have used horses to get into position but not to move around a battlefield. Okey's Dragoons at Naseby, as mentioned above seem to have dismounted behind a hedge, fought from there, and then when the battle came back to them, remounted and charged. If there is a historical example of Dragoons moving on foot, followed by their horseholders, I haven't found it, so would welcome any info others may have.

Cheers,

Mollinary

[Westmarcher]

Hi Leman, I actually entirely agree with you, simplicity is admirable, and usually makes for a much mor3 fun game.  . If it wasn't for the example of Okey's Dragoons at Naseby I would be inclined to say that once Dragoons dismount they can never remount. But Okey's dragoons did. So I went with the simplest concept I could come up with. The horseholder is simply a marker, once placed, you can forget it, it doesn't move. If you want to remount, you go back to it. It is uncomplicated. But it's purpose is to limit the way Wargamers are prone to create super troops out of those who were, in reality, entirely ordinary, by exploiting aspects of the rules. I can think of few (well actually none!) occasions, where Dragoons moved across a battlefield mounting and dismounting at will. Dragoons, and mounted infantry, seem to have used horses to get into position but not to move around a battlefield. Okey's Dragoons at Naseby, as mentioned above seem to have dismounted behind a hedge, fought from there, and then when the battle came back to them, remounted and charged. If there's is  a historical example of Dragoons moving on foot, followed by their horseholders, I haven't found it, so would welcome any info others may have.

That is exactly the question FK&P addresses. The horseholders stay where the unit dismounted. To remount, the unit has to return to that point. If it is overrun by enemy units, then that is it. The lesson, is dismount somewhere safe, and don't move too far!

Good explanation. I think you've incorporated a good rule there, Mollinary.  Simple, sensible and fun*.    

*How embarrassing would it be to have your horses stolen or "forget where you parked them." "Well, Constable, we're sure we left them here ..." Great for campaigns, too.    

[paulr]

Agreed

FK&P adds some very nice flavour with simple mechanisms for the slightly unusual troop types A very small price to pay for the richness added

[nigel drury]

The irregular figure is useful, the horse being a bit smaller is also reasonable. 'Spare' horse-holders make useful figures for leading pack-horses, wagons or adding into gun crew.

[d_Guy]

FWIW
Here is a pic of horse holder markers I use for FK&P

To the left is Pendraken LOA (Pixie painted it) - it is shimmed up to get the base surface height equal to the other two.
The middle one is Irregular Miniatures (smaller and thinner figures but well enough done).
To the right (providing more scale comparison) is an earlier attempt with a Pendraken Musketeer and a Minifig(?) MT horse.

Using the dismounted marker to show where you left your horse is a simple way to implement dragoons. I Like it.