105mm Artillery Cost

[barbarian]

I'd say the problem in BKCII was the survivability of the AT guns : They didn't last long, even in cover.

[toxicpixie]

Yeah, you had to get them dug in to start with, as with no target priority rules they could be "cherry picked" easily once spotted. Or if clipped by an arty template.

Still, I have to applaud Pete there - it reflects pretty well on real world awkwardness AND vulnerability!

[sediment]

@TP
Once again we seem to be agreeing.

If you have to use towed AT guns from the march, you've been surprised.  If you knew there were tanks coming you'd be damn sure to have everything you could positioned as advantageously as possible.  Great in deliberate attack/defense games.  In hasty attack or encounter, your towed AT guns would be needed in action ASAP if armour appears.  But the real question is do they need to be lumbering if manhandled and in my humble opinion PAK 36, IG75, 37mm AT and 2pdrs probably don't need to be either lumbering or to deploy.  Maybe larger calibre weapons like the 17pdr do, and I'm not sufficiently expert to know where the divide is, but to be lumbering and to need to deploy makes the agile, smaller calibre weapons too weak in game terms, and the PAK 36 was effective during the Britzkrieg and early Barbarossa era, provided you avoided Matildas and KVs.  I wasn't thinking of the IS75s firing barrages either, but firing direct fire in support of infantry, which is what they were for.  Most times I've used the 75s has been as makeshift AT guns, as they pack a useful punch.

Cheers, Andy

[toxicpixie]

Heh

I think it's a question of what gets listed and how - if you as the list/rules writer have made all ATG's Gun-AT, which gives whatever rules apply to that "arm of service"/stand type, AND have made them ALL Lumbering (further restricting them ALL), then it's a cock up (IMO). The lighter weapons weren't very manhandle-able, but they certainly weren't like a mid to late war, weighs literally tons, and when fired has to be dug out the ground gun. TBH giving bit ATGs like the 17pdr ANY ability to move without limbering is probably overly generous

2pdr should be at least Lumbering and likely immobile - the groovy 360 degree flat platform carriage was a cunning plan that just didn't fit on the ground needs, and although you could fire without fully deploying it still weighed almost literally a ton - unlike the PaK36 which was less than half that, and intended to be brought into action without faffing. But that's splitting hairs on individual guns, in general terms I'd leave smaller man-mobile-ish guns without lumbering (but still picking up the the "Gun-AT" or whatever "deploy to fire", spotted as a gun etc overall rules), and then you can differentiate the bigger ones with both game stats AND a nod to historical accuracy...

Those German infantry guns are handy, probably too handy, in most rules sets. Mortars did the job better and quicker. Although if it's all you've got to try and shoot up tanks with, then you ain't got much choice

[T13A]

For my money, BKC-II modeled the survivability of AT guns pretty well. Not a problem with the rules.

Cheers Paul

[Orcs]

We have discussed the survivability of A/T guns  or lack of it in BKC2 several times at club.

In BKC2 a small A/T gun such as a 2 pdr has 5 hits, A large A/t gun such as an 88 has three hits.

If your targeting the weapons crew - which is why doctrine said to use HE ar MG fire the larger gun having a much bigger crew should have more hits than the 2 pdr with a smaller crew.  If your destroying the gun the points make sense.

The other problem is the lack of target priority and large A/T guns such as the 88 are immediately targeted by all and sundry so die very quickly.

Personally I think all A/T guns should be the same number of hits, as smaller guns are harder to target but have smaller crews so casualties have a greater effect.

[toxicpixie]

Yes, I think it's supposed to reflect the sheer size of the target, and the associated difficulty or lack thereof in disabling it. I assume the small crew of the smaller weapons and smaller limbers, easy ammo handling etc all factors into the higher hits as you can crawl over or throw or roll the ammo for 37mm ATG from cover with a little ammo box/limber out of sight, as opposed to having a dozen blokes all lugging massive 30pdr shells and charges from a limber the size of a car for the 88 (etc).

I can see merit either way mind, as it's another encouragement to use the smaller gun sizes, but that's also covered in "do you use vaguely historical TOE's/force structures?" and the sheer points cost. I might rationalise it a little - make the range one either side of five as three hits, no save is a very easy kill.