Farms on Gravelotte-St. Privat Battlefield, FPW 1870

[mollinary]

Keeping on the hunt, I found the following fascinating site.  www.military-photos.com   It has an index in English, and a vast collection of amazing photos of uniforms etc.  One section, late on, is titled The Glory moments of the French Army.  Within this section is one on 1870, and within that one on the defence of St Hubert farm. It contains a wonderful near contemporary (if I read it correctly, taken the day after it was captured) photo of the farm close to.   As I googled ferme st Hubert Gravelotte and looked at images I found one at www.delcampe.net which is a view across the ravine towards St Hubert. It is late nineteenth, early twentieth century, based on the clothes of the onlookers. It shows the road rising towards the farm, and you can clearly see the quarries on the other side of the road, and a monument on the plateau above.  The key thing in this photo is how light is the tree cover in this area compared to the present day.  

Thanks for asking the question Oaf, I am really enjoying the search!

Mollinary

[Leman]

tried to register but some bastard is already using leman and I ain't changing!

[mollinary]

Hi Leman,

If you are talking about delcampe.net you don't have to register, simply search for ferme st Hubert Gravelotte and it will bring up loads of postcards.  You don't have to register for the other site either. Curiously, when I go direct to delcampe I cannot find the image which is there when I google!  ?

Mollinary

[Leman]

Thanks Mollers, the Mance causeway 2006:

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

All the woods are very much more overgrown than 1870, the buildings in Gravelotte that face the ravine are pocked with bullet holes!
The ravine for Wedel's charge at Vron is the same.
It's because the trees used to be pollarded  for firewood.

[Leman]

Ah for the days before climate change.

[mollinary]

Thanks Leman,

I was there again last summer, and it hasn't changed much.  We did some wandering up to the Moscou plateau through the woods on the north side of the road, and the climb is steep and rocky as you make your way through the old quarry. The way up is only really passable because the Germans made a stone pathway up to the monument of regiment No 67, right at the crest, just before it opens out. It really is a great battlefield to explore.

Mollinary

[Steve J]

It's because the trees used to be pollarded  for firewood.

Another thing to note is that hedges used to be maximum 4' high, as that was the tallest that a standing man could cut them to. With mechanisation hedges are another couple of feet taller and therefore significantly alter lines of sight.

Thinking of how much trees grow, there are some photos of an old quarry near to where I live from the turn of the century, where the quarry edges are covered by mere saplings. Now they are semi mature trees and you cannot see the quarry sides anymore. It shows you how much a landscape can change in a small amount of time.

[cameronian]

This is good stuff, now, does any one have a photo of Point du Jour, does anyone know what it actually was (not trick question, I haven't a clue nor have I been able to turn anything up).

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

It was to the far right wasn't it? Or left if you are French.... If it ever existed as a recognisable settlement it was described as a homestead, I've seen it in about three different positions on the map, I assume it was off in the modern day woods to the far left as the ravine turns as Verge's  Brigade of V corps under Frossards II Corp as detached to hold the area , with support from the fortress guns of Metz.... I assume it fairly comprehensively levelled and torched, contemporary report suggest French soldier's bodies were found inside.

http://www.delcampe.net/page/item/id,243935536,var,GRAVELOTTE-Cimetiere-Militaire-du-Point-du-Jour-Gravelotte-1870-belle-cpa-bon-etat-voir-scans,language,E.html
En Francais https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravelotte

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yXRPAwAAQBAJ&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=GkQnDHar_6&sig=rQoSMhTZn2InZg55amSL-Pq49go&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false

And one of those oh so accurate maps!
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5z6NTY2YxR8C&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=SvpwZuF5Ib&sig=6wZAp5VPJILQJ0v8RmBw9S8y4Ds&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEIJjAE#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XdgLAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=pont+du+jour+gravelotte&source=bl&ots=nOyo8w3D3A&sig=0mvdlPOg6hH42XJZtDEMoWtESZU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfyqPyxO_KAhWJnBoKHZBYB98Q6AEILjAH#v=onepage&q=pont%20du%20jour%20gravelotte&f=false

[mollinary]

If you have a look on the www.military-photos.com    site just below the little piece on St Hubert is one on Point de Jour. it contains a detailed little map which describes Point du Jour as a "ferme" and shows a number of buildings at the point where the old and new Metz-Verdun roads diverge.   One of the accounts of the fighting talks of the "maisons" of the Point de Jour so it would appear to have more than one house. Not seen any photos of this one, the Prussians seem to have been stopped about 100-200 metres short of it.  From a defensive point of view it would seem to have benefited from the turn of the new main road to the south, which meant the ditches on either side provided ready made trenches.   The reason many of the farms are considerably different today (or non existent as in this case) is actually the heavy fighting here in 1944.

Mollinary

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Great site, thank you.

There are also some VERY impressive German bunkers on the track up to the Moscou farm!
Hotly fought over would be an understatement in these parts...

[Oat]

Hey everyone,
Excellent discussion. I just wanted to share with you this amazing flikr account that I found. Whoever this person is, is well tops in my book. They have so many rare photos of 1870 and of the farms and battles around gravelotte st Privat.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bmmetz/albums/72157643399744963

The quality is outstanding, the images are huge and detailed. For example you can make out clear as day all the loop holes in this photo that's taken from the read of Saint Hubert by the looks of it!
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bmmetz/13621421835/in/album-72157643399744963/


If you can't tell, I'm excited about this find
-Oat

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Brilliant find Oat!

[Leman]

Will have to return to these as they are taking a monumental length of time to load.

[mollinary]

Excellent collection!   It even includes the Moscou ferme photo that I referred to in an earlier post.

Mollinary

[Steve J]

Wow, some amazing photos there!

[Duke Speedy of Leighton]

Just shows how much the Mainz ravine has become overgrown.

[Leman]

Just looked at the photos taken around Metz, and found the one showing the entrance to the Engineers HQ. Here is the photo of it which I took in 2006.

[Oat]

That flikr find was totally by accident, I searched for Ferme Saint Hubert 1870 or so and there it was!

Leman, I'm jealous that you got to see that. Gorgeous monument

-Pat