Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Cold War Commander => Topic started by: Superscribe on 21 June 2022, 01:25:04 PM

Title: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 21 June 2022, 01:25:04 PM
We had our first game on Sunday: 5000pts Encounter Scenario Soviet v British circa 1985, with good mix of unit types on both sides so we could checkout many of the rules. We had 3 British HQs and 2 Soviet HQs along with FACs/FAOs. Table was 180cm x 120cm. We didn't get through many game turns as we were finding our way through the rules.

It was quite close terrain as you can see in the photo so there was very little opportunity for any long-range fire.

We opted to deploy Recce in the nearest 1/3 of the table (rather than Rules P75, in our own half of the table). This increased the distance to enemy units and therefore affected their ability to get successful recce comms.  We had several recce failures, as many were having to throw 6s, but we did have one successful recce-spotted off-table arty strike, but it was hitting on 6s so was not very effective. Next time we will use the full half-table for recce deployment to improve their chances of getting successful comms!

We had commanded air strikes (as no assets in Encounter Scenario) and one ground attack came in (after saving the one AA hit it received) against armour in the open, but as expected with the rule change to hit on 6s it was quite ineffective against full AFVs. 

One Attack Helicopter attack came in but we played this incorrectly and as we were out of time we did not replay it to correct the method of attack. We had a dedicated FAC but missed the fact that in General Attack Mode they should be deployed on the table along with other units, and then move up to 50cm per command throw to manoeuvre into a position or use pop-up to attack enemy visible to the FAC (or visible to recce if using recce comms to the FAC). We will play it correctly next time.

One success was a Chieftain squadron that arrived on a hill, behind the crest so had soft cover protection, and despite T-64s' attempt to suppress/kill with opportunity fire, the Chieftains were able to kill 2 out of 3 T-64s at long range.  Russian players wished their T-64s had been the version with ATGM – maybe next time!

We all enjoyed the game and will be organizing another one quite soon, probably with similar forces and terrain - hopefully we will get in more game turns and try out more rules   
Table1.pg.jpg

Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 21 June 2022, 02:01:25 PM
Don't tend to use points myself rather formations. I would sugest more HQ's on 5000 pts you can get most of a Soviet Tank Rget which would have 4 HQ's - CO - 3 Btn HQ's. The British would have 2 battlegroups, so 5 HQ's - 2 for each battlegroup and the "Brigade" HQ. Remember to have Recce elements these have a vital roll. Keep posting and ASK QUESTIONS.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 21 June 2022, 02:18:32 PM
I do normally use orbats but for this game I wanted a selection of different unit types so we could explore the rules.  For Soviets we had Tk Bn and MR Bn (hence 2 HQs) with some recce, air, hels and on/off table arty, plus FAO/FAC. For the Brits a Mech Bn and Tk Regt with some ATGW, hels, air, on/off table arty and recce split in to 3 combat teams (3 HQs) plus FAO/FACs.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Big Insect on 21 June 2022, 04:14:37 PM
Looks great Chris - and a bold/brave move going with a large number of points.

As discussed on the other thread - I am liking the way you are playing Recce - that works for me (all be it that it is the result of some 'sloppy' wording by me).

What scale are you playing? It looks like 15mm?

The Scenarios are a good way to get to grips with the games as the restrictions mean you cannot get overly complicated (well you could, if you tried) :D

The 3 Chieftains hull-down dishing the dirt on the T64s sounds about right - I'd recommend a 3:1 advantage to an attacker usually, but that Scenario is a balanced one.

Do please keep this sort of post coming.
Thanks
Mark
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Ithoriel on 21 June 2022, 04:16:25 PM
The first set are visible but small - a link to a preview thumbnail, maybe?

Second set don't show and looking at the code behind them it doesn't look like a link to an image file.

On ImageShack you can tick an image or images and get the system to generate the links you need so you can cut and paste them into the image pop-up.

I imagine Flikr has an equivalent function. 
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 21 June 2022, 04:30:21 PM
OK try sharing again - can these be viewed OK?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52162962408_1d2a13e81a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ntsPoQ)Table (https://flic.kr/p/2ntsPoQ) by Chris Holt (https://www.flickr.com/photos/195898417@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52163452585_56858d572d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ntvk7a)Soviets (https://flic.kr/p/2ntvk7a) by Chris Holt (https://www.flickr.com/photos/195898417@N02/), on Flickr

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52163452605_1969c3bc83_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ntvk7v)Brits (https://flic.kr/p/2ntvk7v) by Chris Holt (https://www.flickr.com/photos/195898417@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: mrkev on 22 June 2022, 10:23:42 AM
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 21 June 2022, 02:01:25 PMDon't tend to use points myself rather formations. I would sugest more HQ's on 5000 pts you can get most of a Soviet Tank Rget which would have 4 HQ's - CO - 3 Btn HQ's. The British would have 2 battlegroups, so 5 HQ's - 2 for each battlegroup and the "Brigade" HQ. Remember to have Recce elements these have a vital roll. Keep posting and ASK QUESTIONS.

Out of curiosity, has anyone ever compiled a list of CWC2 formations?  I know there are guides out there to make your own from an orbat but it could be valuable for the newcomer if pre-made formations were in a central space
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: sultanbev on 22 June 2022, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: mrkev on 22 June 2022, 10:23:42 AMOut of curiosity, has anyone ever compiled a list of CWC2 formations?  I know there are guides out there to make your own from an orbat but it could be valuable for the newcomer if pre-made formations were in a central space

I do have permission from Leon to do CWC2 unit specific lists in the MicroMark collection, in the same way I did/will do BKCIV lists, but haven't started yet. I'm not convinced all the stats are settled yet.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Big Insect on 22 June 2022, 12:15:44 PM
Quote from: sultanbev on 22 June 2022, 11:00:40 AMI do have permission from Leon to do CWC2 unit specific lists in the MicroMark collection, in the same way I did/will do BKCIV lists, but haven't started yet. I'm not convinced all the stats are settled yet.


I'd agree with that statement Mark ... I'd let thing settle down a bit 1st - but which formations were you looking for specifically mrkev?
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 22 June 2022, 12:31:35 PM
I have a spread sheet which allows you to calaclate points on a variable points value. PM me for a copy, may take a day or two I'm storing 20 yrs worth of stuff.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: mrkev on 22 June 2022, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 22 June 2022, 12:15:44 PMI'd agree with that statement Mark ... I'd let thing settle down a bit 1st - but which formations were you looking for specifically mrkev?

I'm not sure really!  I've got 80s Brits and Soviets, it'd be interesting to see how close my setup is to a more formal formation. I'm thinking mainly of the total newcomer and what would help them get started.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 22 June 2022, 02:04:17 PM
You can almost generalise to cover all armies - infantry have 3 fighting companies and a support weapons company if Nato, Pact in BTR or OT 3 fighting companies with support weapons section added (2 ATGW and 2 GL) plus 120mm mortar bty, BMP lack the support weapons in companies. Armour not quite as standard - most Btn/Rgt have 3 companies/squadrons, most have 3 platoons/troops but the British have 4. Artillery is more difficult I'd use 1 model for 3-4 guns on table, and 6-8 for off table.

Recce 2 to 4 models per Nato btn - may be Jeeps, armoured cars or APC's
3-4 Models per Rgt for Pact stuff with Armoured cars and either PT-76 or BMR (BMP varient)
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 25 July 2022, 07:49:05 PM
Hi

We played another Encounter Scenario at the weekend on 8' x 6' table which gave more room for manoeuvre, with some additional forces to the last game. Basically a Soviet MR Battalion plus 10x T-64s, Recce, dedicated ATGW, AA, off table artillery and air v British Tank-heavy Battlegroup comprising 10x Chieftain Mk 9, Mech Coy in 432 with Milan, Recce, On and off table artillery, air and dedicated ATGW.  We decided to try a couple of optional rules, namely Remote Controlled Swingfire and auto suppression for off table artillery and air strikes.  A few notes from the game..........

There was quite a lot of high terrain and high ground so there was not much opportunity for long-range direct fire as LOS was blocked in several places. Most recce failed their communication tests, so we had very few +1s to command units and no recce directing arty or air strikes. We found the recce rules quite wieldy with too many factors to consider when throwing recce comms dice, so will opt for Fast Recce optional rules next time, which are simpler and quicker to play.
 
A question that arose with recce – being used to playing BKC2 (Yep we are not yet playing BKCIV) where LOS is not required between recce and the target to carry out a comms test, CWC2 rules on p31 state that when attempting to communicate LOS is not needed between recce and command unit, but there is no mention of LOS between recce and target.  So we played that recce must have LOS to a target unit.  However, the optional Fast Recce rules state LOS is not required between recce and the target, nor between recce and command unit.  The recce rules need to clarify exactly what LOS is needed from recce in either direction, particularly when directing artillery or air strikes.

It took a couple of turns to get FAOs and FACs in to position to call in arty and air strikes, but once they started to direct the strikes the optional auto suppression rule made these quite effective against armour (target is auto suppressed when receive 2+ hits from off table arty or air strike).   We assumed the auto suppression hits were counted before saves were thrown – is this correct?

Both sides were lucky to get very low deviation so managed to hit circa 7 tanks/APCs each time they brought in air ground attack or concentrated arty strikes. Several tanks and many loaded BMPs were destroyed by air strikes, a few by attack helicopter, and the British Chieftains killed off several of the Soviet tanks suppressed by air strikes.  The Brits managed to bring Soviets to within 1 point of their BP!  Main lesson learnt was to spread units out to minimise the number of units caught under these templates.

We had one effective attack using remote controlled Swingfire v a BMP in the open (almost a guaranteed kill when 2 Swingfire shoot at a BMP!) Due to intervening high area terrain, their HQ did not have many target options.  To make best use of the long range of Swingfire (200cm) and 9 attack dice each (they had 2 launchers so 18 attack dice and no armour saves if enemy does not have Composite Armour), it's important to place their HQ in a good position with LOS to much of the table.

Using AA as opportunity fire was quite effective v airstrikes as terrain doesn't affect LOS.  No aircraft were destroyed but they were able to drive off one air strike and affect the number of hit dice for a couple of other air strikes.  The Soviets managed to suppress one British Lynx but due to positioning of British AA behind high ground they were not as effective as the Soviet AA. 

There were a pair of Hinds on the table with their dedicated FAC from early in the game which were able to move with little interception by British AA, until one flew on top of a hill and revealed themselves!  Hinds managed to kill a Challenger (flank hit with ATGW so no saves) but were unable to take advantage and create havoc against the Brits. It's important to place AA where they can hit helicopters as well as high flying aircraft.

The use of AA as Opportunity Fire against an airstrike or helicopter attack was quite straight forward but the rules are not as clear when using AA fire in the Command Phase to attack enemy helicopters that are flying on the table in General Attack Mode.  We assumed if there was more than 1 visible helicopter target the firer could choose which AA units were to fire at each helicopter.  They add attack dice together for all those firing at a helicopter, hit on 5 or 6 as normal, helicopter throws saves if applicable.  If not destroyed, then instead of reducing enemy attack dice (which is what happens when using Opp Fire v an attacking helicopter), the firer throws for suppression on 5 or 6 (like you do for an attack against a ground target) and then apply helicopter suppression rules. Is this correct? I think an example in the rules would help explain how you engage enemy helicopters in Ground Attack Mode during a command phase.

Photos to follow if I can upload them.....

Any views or advice would be much appreciated

We plan to do an Assault Scenario next time.......
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 27 July 2022, 01:17:07 PM
Links to some of the photos from our latest game:
https://flic.kr/p/2nAAVbN
https://flic.kr/p/2nAAVc9
https://flic.kr/p/2nAHwFR
https://flic.kr/p/2nAG4eq
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Smartbomb on 27 July 2022, 03:11:13 PM
Quote from: Superscribe on 25 July 2022, 07:49:05 PMA question that arose with recce – being used to playing BKC2 (Yep we are not yet playing BKCIV) where LOS is not required between recce and the target to carry out a comms test, CWC2 rules on p31 state that when attempting to communicate LOS is not needed between recce and command unit, but there is no mention of LOS between recce and target. 


Here you go, Page 31, final paragraph before the modifier table:  "To facilitate a Recce communication CV bonus, measure the distance from the Recce unit to the nearest eligible target enemy unit. ***A Recce unit may attempt to spot any enemy unit within 60cms, to which they can trace line of sight. ***
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 27 July 2022, 03:20:44 PM
Hi Smartbomb

Yep OK got that, but as in my original post "the optional Fast Recce rules state LOS is not required between recce and the target" which is the opposite of what you have highlighted in the main rules.  This maybe by-design, but the fast recce rules are looking like my favoured option as they are quicker and simpler to use.  I will be interested in Big Insect's comments about this.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Smartbomb on 28 July 2022, 02:21:24 PM
Gotcha! I missed that part.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 28 July 2022, 03:09:10 PM
The logic behind that is that an individual on foot has moved to a point where he can see and communicate.
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Big Insect on 28 July 2022, 03:53:21 PM
QuoteHi

We played another Encounter Scenario at the weekend on 8' x 6' table which gave more room for manoeuvre, with some additional forces to the last game. Basically a Soviet MR Battalion plus 10x T-64s, Recce, dedicated ATGW, AA, off table artillery and air v British Tank-heavy Battlegroup comprising 10x Chieftain Mk 9, Mech Coy in 432 with Milan, Recce, On and off table artillery, air and dedicated ATGW.  We decided to try a couple of optional rules, namely Remote Controlled Swingfire and auto suppression for off table artillery and air strikes.  A few notes from the game..........

There was quite a lot of high terrain and high ground so there was not much opportunity for long-range direct fire as LOS was blocked in several places. Most recce failed their communication tests, so we had very few +1s to command units and no recce directing arty or air strikes. We found the recce rules quite wieldy with too many factors to consider when throwing recce comms dice, so will opt for Fast Recce optional rules next time, which are simpler and quicker to play.

> good observations on the unwieldiness of the full Recce rules - the 'Fast Play' option might help you out with that, as you suggest. The Full Recce rules might be something that you move onto as you get more familiar or they can play very well in smaller games, where the game is more tactical.
 
A question that arose with recce – being used to playing BKC2 (Yep we are not yet playing BKCIV) where LOS is not required between recce and the target to carry out a comms test, CWC2 rules on p31 state that when attempting to communicate LOS is not needed between recce and command unit, but there is no mention of LOS between recce and target.  So we played that recce must have LOS to a target unit.  However, the optional Fast Recce rules state LOS is not required between recce and the target, nor between recce and command unit.  The recce rules need to clarify exactly what LOS is needed from recce in either direction, particularly when directing artillery or air strikes.

> you are correct in your assumption here - Recce units do not need LoS to their targets or their commanders. We can pick that up as a 'clarification' in the errata corrections.

It took a couple of turns to get FAOs and FACs in to position to call in arty and air strikes, but once they started to direct the strikes the optional auto suppression rule made these quite effective against armour (target is auto suppressed when receive 2+ hits from off table arty or air strike).  We assumed the auto suppression hits were counted before saves were thrown – is this correct?

> Yes - it is the initial number of hits that suppresses.

Both sides were lucky to get very low deviation so managed to hit circa 7 tanks/APCs each time they brought in air ground attack or concentrated arty strikes. Several tanks and many loaded BMPs were destroyed by air strikes, a few by attack helicopter, and the British Chieftains killed off several of the Soviet tanks suppressed by air strikes.  The Brits managed to bring Soviets to within 1 point of their BP!  Main lesson learnt was to spread units out to minimise the number of units caught under these templates.

We had one effective attack using remote controlled Swingfire v a BMP in the open (almost a guaranteed kill when 2 Swingfire shoot at a BMP!) Due to intervening high area terrain, their HQ did not have many target options.  To make best use of the long range of Swingfire (200cm) and 9 attack dice each (they had 2 launchers so 18 attack dice and no armour saves if enemy does not have Composite Armour), it's important to place their HQ in a good position with LOS to much of the table.

Using AA as opportunity fire was quite effective v airstrikes as terrain doesn't affect LOS.  No aircraft were destroyed but they were able to drive off one air strike and affect the number of hit dice for a couple of other air strikes.  The Soviets managed to suppress one British Lynx but due to positioning of British AA behind high ground they were not as effective as the Soviet AA. 

There were a pair of Hinds on the table with their dedicated FAC from early in the game which were able to move with little interception by British AA, until one flew on top of a hill and revealed themselves!  Hinds managed to kill a Challenger (flank hit with ATGW so no saves) but were unable to take advantage and create havoc against the Brits. It's important to place AA where they can hit helicopters as well as high flying aircraft.

The use of AA as Opportunity Fire against an airstrike or helicopter attack was quite straight forward but the rules are not as clear when using AA fire in the Command Phase to attack enemy helicopters that are flying on the table in General Attack Mode.  We assumed if there was more than 1 visible helicopter target the firer could choose which AA units were to fire at each helicopter. 

> Correct: assuming you are using Dedicated AA they can then be ordered again in future turns to hit the same or another target.

They add attack dice together for all those firing at a helicopter, hit on 5 or 6 as normal, helicopter throws saves if applicable.  If not destroyed, then instead of reducing enemy attack dice (which is what happens when using Opp Fire v an attacking helicopter), the firer throws for suppression on 5 or 6 (like you do for an attack against a ground target) and then apply helicopter suppression rules. Is this correct?

> spot on - it's just the same principle as if you were shooting at an MBT/IFV/APC on the ground. If you have a single AA unit shooting, it must pick a single target & cannot split its fire across more than one.

I think an example in the rules would help explain how you engage enemy helicopters in Ground Attack Mode during a command phase.

> Yes, we've had a few requests for more examples and that will form part of the Errata upgrade. Even if it means we produce these examples in a separate PDF format.

Photos to follow if I can upload them.....

Any views or advice would be much appreciated

We plan to do an Assault Scenario next time.......


Hi Chris .... just back from holiday - hence my delayed replies - which are in-line in-bold above.
Sounds like you are getting the hang of things very well, and the game seems to be playing out pretty much correct historically. I was very interested to hear how you got to grips with the Remote Controller optional rule. It sounds like that is exactly the right way to play it. The other thing to watch with it is the 'minimum' ranges for ATGW - even on a big table it is amazing how quickly you can find that the ATGWs are under their 'arming ranges'.
Thanks (& looking forward to some more photos)
Cheers
Mark
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Big Insect on 28 July 2022, 03:58:14 PM
Quote from: Smartbomb on 27 July 2022, 03:11:13 PMHere you go, Page 31, final paragraph before the modifier table:  "To facilitate a Recce communication CV bonus, measure the distance from the Recce unit to the nearest eligible target enemy unit. ***A Recce unit may attempt to spot any enemy unit within 60cms, to which they can trace line of sight. ***

This is poor wording on my part (& I'll correct it in the Errata) - as the LoS bit is irrelevant, as a Recce unit doesn't need LoS to its nearest eligible 'target' enemy unit or to the nearest eligible friendly Command unit.

Thanks
Mark
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 30 July 2022, 08:34:58 PM
Hi Mark

Quote from: Big Insect on 28 July 2022, 03:53:21 PMI was very interested to hear how you got to grips with the Remote Controller optional rule. It sounds like that is exactly the right way to play it. The other thing to watch with it is the 'minimum' ranges for ATGW - even on a big table it is amazing how quickly you can find that the ATGWs are under their 'arming ranges'.

Next game will have opportunities to use remote controlled Swingfire as Brits are defending against a Soviet Tank Regt assault.  I will let you know how it goes.  Minimum range of ATGW noted but if enemy armour gets that close I expect the British Law-armed infantry to be taking out Soviet tanks!

Were you able to view the photos via the links I posted (if it worked OK, its easier to do that than post the photos themselves)

Regards

Chris
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 04 August 2022, 11:11:03 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 28 July 2022, 03:58:14 PMThis is poor please wording on my part (& I'll correct it in the Errata) - as the LoS bit is irrelevant, as a Recce unit doesn't need LoS to its nearest eligible 'target' enemy unit or to the nearest eligible friendly Command unit.

Thanks
Mark

HI Mark.

You have confirmed regarding recce comms action that LoS is NOT needed from recce unit to the nearest enemy target nor from recce unit to the HQ/FAC/FAO they are trying to communicate, but do they need LoS when they attempt to reconnoitre, either for pathfinding or for spotting concealed units/minefields? If they dont need LoS then rules on p32 will need amending.

Chris

Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Big Insect on 05 August 2022, 11:46:20 AM
LoS (as stated clearly on Page 32 is mandatory for both of these actions) as they are about surveying terrain, and are not focused on a specific enemy unit.

Thanks
Title: Re: CWC2 After Action Reports
Post by: Superscribe on 05 August 2022, 02:13:28 PM
Hi Mark. Many thanks for update regarding recce LoS.
Rgds Chris