Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Non-Wargaming Discussion => Chat & News => Topic started by: fsn on 30 August 2021, 03:58:14 PM

Title: Cavalry questions
Post by: fsn on 30 August 2021, 03:58:14 PM
2021 is Nobby's Year of Napoleonics.

This means Nobby is painting far too many horsies.

I have two questions related to the period.

Firstly, there don't seem to be many (any) pictures of piebalds or skewbalds. Are these a modern affectation, or were they just not used for military service? I know the British disliked any markings on black horses.

Secondly, in my reading I come up with the notion that many cavalry regiments did not carry standards on campaign. Is there a reason for this? Seems to me that cavalry tended to be more multi-hued than infantry, so identity confusion would be more likely. Any thoughts? 
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Scorpio_Rocks on 30 August 2021, 05:36:03 PM
My, albeit limited, understanding is that piebalds and skewbalds have a reputation for being "...great for pack horses, not for riding".

Many regiments throughout history have had a preference (usually cosmetic only) for a certain colour of mount - often resulting in the unit gaining a nickname relating to their horses (eg Black Musketeers, Scots Greys, The Queens Bays, chestnut troop, etc).

Trumpeters often (certainly in French, British and Spanish units) ride Greys. Drum horses are often "coloured" - this is where you will see skewbalds and piebalds.

Most of this is , of course, a parade-ground ideal and often based on heresay and snobbery... I think on campaign it wouldn't take long for other colours and standards to slip in especially in those units lower on the pecking order than guard, cuirassier or other elite units.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 30 August 2021, 06:49:13 PM
Others will be much better able to answer than I... but, roughly, this is what I gather... mainly pertinent to British, though 'may' have applied to others.

'Out of action', many cav tried to 'uniform' horses within a troop for smart look and easy identification when reforming. Eg. Bays, Dark Bays, Chestnuts... etc.
In earlier periods, Greys were for Trumpeters... easy for CO to find for calls. This 'may' have continued for some time... but not officially.
Once on campaign, remounts of any colour became more important... though think that, if possible, they would have attempted to choose.
But anything with four legs and half alive would do. Senior Officers would have their own Stable...so their choice.

I think that there was a view that Piebald / Skewbald might have been 'weaker' in some way... but may have been an excuse for 'Smart'.They were Drum Horses! But not on campaign... Airfix Brit Hussars, apart! lol.
(As an aside... I have just never been keen on part coloured horses... don't know why. Some Females prefer the 'individuality' of distinctive markings. I cannot ascribe to the view that US 'Plains War' Indian ponies were for 'disruptive cammo'... no way! Prob, just what they had... and to make 'theft' more difficult!)
.
As for Standards... not sure. But remember Cav units smaller than Inf... and Regimental Colours / Eagles, consequently less 'safe'... a paramount concern. Much normal use of cav...especially  'lights / mediums'... was scouting / picket   so no flags.

I have never been in a 'Charge'. lol... but know that even after a 'group' gallop, there can be a bit of 'milling around' of horses and riders! Can only imagine the confusion following a cav melee, with troops spread all over, on excited or blown horse. Troop 'colour' of mounts, Greys for signals... and no 'sacred' Standards to protect... all make sense! Reforming is essential... but could take some doing!

However, Cav are Cav... and have always tended to 'Do Their Own Thing'!... orders, notwithstanding. I rather think that 'Gamers' are free to do the same! lol.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: fsn on 30 August 2021, 07:51:01 PM
Thanks chaps.

Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 30 August 2021, 06:49:13 PM
Much normal use of cav...especially  'lights / mediums'... was scouting / picket   so no flags.

Oh yeah!  :-[

Cuirassiers seem to have been more attached to their standards.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 30 August 2021, 08:23:55 PM
I was always told piebalds were especially valued by American tribes due to their skittish nature, and hated by 'European' cavalry for the same reason. Pied us also a name for a jester, so maybe they were seen as less pure?
Stupid really. It's just a horse.
Anyway, Pinto or Painted horses are a thoroughbred American variety.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 30 August 2021, 08:48:19 PM
Quote from: fsn on 30 August 2021, 07:51:01 PM
Thanks chaps.

Oh yeah!  :-[

Cuirassiers seem to have been more attached to their standards.

Thank you.

But, might 'possibly'... have, in Spain, worn Brown tunics and brown baggy pants! NOT MY Choice! lol. 'Elites' would have had 'fisrt grabs' on remounts... but anything that hadn't died and been eaten! A Wargame table is for your pleasure... so, 'Go as you Please!'
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 30 August 2021, 09:05:15 PM
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 30 August 2021, 08:23:55 PM
I was always told piebalds were especially valued by American tribes due to their skittish nature, and hated by 'European' cavalry for the same reason. Pied us also a name for a jester, so maybe they were seen as less pure?
Stupid really. It's just a horse.
Anyway, Pinto or Painted horses are a thoroughbred American variety.

The Piebalds that I have 'been on', in modern UK, VERY placid! Maybe, 'Horses For Courses'... and 'Indian Ponies'... very different! 'Show' often so very important... otherwise... skin! Always useful.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Chris Pringle on 30 August 2021, 10:29:45 PM
Fsn, which armies are you doing? I understand that the Austrian cavalry did not carry their standards on campaign in the Hungarian War of Independence of 1848-1849. This was because they had decided not to repeat the mistake of taking them onto the battlefield during the Napoleonic Wars. Leaving them at home meant they could not be captured!

(My Austrian cuirassiers for the '48 still carry their standard with them - I just like flags.)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Westmarcher on 30 August 2021, 11:06:39 PM
Standards: Here's my spin on it from what I've read, what I think I've read and what I imagine (OK, maybe forget it ..   :-[ ).

[Anyway ..] Many wargamers think armies just milled about and had one big get-together to have a big fight called a 'battle' now and again, involving the whole regiment (because that's how they're based and that's how they've been painted up). No. There were lots of little actions between battles, particularly with the light cavalry and dragoons (called 'Klein Krieg' ... or similar) which involved smaller units (e.g. troops or squadrons). So you wouldn't be risking the regimental colours on a small raid, patrol, advance guard or rear guard duty.

Also, in any size of cavalry melee, a standard bearer (a great and honourable trophy to capture) must surely stick out like a sore thumb .... and easy meat, too (after all, the Ensign only has two hands; one to hold the flag and one to hold the reins - so how hard would it have been to ride up with some support to deal with his escort in a cavalry melee, cut down the standard bearer and ride away with the trophy?). So much better to leave your precious regimental colours in the church near your home barracks?
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 31 August 2021, 06:56:08 AM
On horse colour apart from British Rgts there would be mixed coloursin most regiments, logistics would prevent a uniform colour. Even if you get all bay for instance the individual horses would have varying white socks and blazes. Greys were considered unlucky.

Standards - its a yes and no thing. In skirmishes they would be left behind, but in a major battle they would be carried to give a rallying point in the cionfusion.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: fsn on 31 August 2021, 07:23:00 AM
Quote from: Chris Pringle on 30 August 2021, 10:29:45 PM
Fsn, which armies are you doing?

I'm thinking of Napoleonics mostly. The trigger was around the Bavarian ChL who seemed to have given up their colours when converting from Dragoons.

Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Big Insect on 31 August 2021, 08:43:35 AM
Romans recorded that Numidians (and North African Moors) used piebalds and skewbald ponies and they were very hardy, would eat anything and were ideal for skirmish/hit and run type warfare - a bit like the way that North American Plains Indians used them.
They also tended not to be very big - so not your ideal 'heavy' horse.

I'd also read somewhere that you'd tend to get Napoleonic/Victorian era regiments of horse, with horses starting off all similar colours - as they would be coming out of peace-time studs (although officers supplied their own mounts) but as the campaign worn on the colours varied as replacements were drafted in - either locally or from home.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: fsn on 04 September 2021, 11:16:55 AM
(https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/241397962_1488228601534684_8854522847171108260_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=ohP1A8ruTOAAX9CSsJZ&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=0b9fb22eadc09d9853a370b909fcbc0c&oe=615895E6)

Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Techno II on 04 September 2021, 11:31:06 AM
Nah.... I really think that's a CGI'd faked photo, Nobby.
The 'mane' especially....it's not even remotely the right colour....

The 'feathers' and the tail might be real.

Cheers - Phil. :)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 04 September 2021, 12:04:56 PM
Quote from: Westmarcher on 30 August 2021, 11:06:39 PM
Standards: Here's my spin on it from what I've read, what I think I've read and what I imagine (OK, maybe forget it ..   :-[ ).

[Anyway ..] Many wargamers think armies just milled about and had one big get-together to have a big fight called a 'battle' now and again, involving the whole regiment (because that's how they're based and that's how they've been painted up). No. There were lots of little actions between battles, particularly with the light cavalry and dragoons (called 'Klein Krieg' ... or similar) which involved smaller units (e.g. troops or squadrons). So you wouldn't be risking the regimental colours on a small raid, patrol, advance guard or rear guard duty.

Also, in any size of cavalry melee, a standard bearer (a great and honourable trophy to capture) must surely stick out like a sore thumb .... and easy meat, too (after all, the Ensign only has two hands; one to hold the flag and one to hold the reins - so how hard would it have been to ride up with some support to deal with his escort in a cavalry melee, cut down the standard bearer and ride away with the trophy?). So much better to leave your precious regimental colours in the church near your home barracks?

My knowledge of Napoleonic cavalry drill is extremely slim.
However what I have read (Ospreys and Haythornwaite) all describe cavalry manoeuvring as regiments, but attacking with squadrons in various formations (line column echelon ....).
I know I've been frustrated in the past by the sheer size of some of the Eastern light cavalry regiments.

Retuning to Westmarcher's point about vulnerability of the standard.
I can see how a horseman has a harder time guarding his standard than an infantryman (who often enjoyed a well equipped and experienced colour guard).

Let me propose that the Ensign would remain with the reserve squadrons when part of a regiment charged.
Here it could serve its battlefield purpose, a visual rally point for the fellows who got stuck in and need to regroup.
It could either sit back where the charge began (Rally back in many rule sets), or rush forward to the occupied ground if teh unit decided to rally in a forward position.

Most accounts of charges from riders who were there describe maintaining formation on officers who rode ahead of the line.
This suggests there was little need for the colours up front during the charge.

Perhaps somebody with a greater depth of knowledge can confirm.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Orcs on 04 September 2021, 07:09:47 PM
Quote from: Techno II on 04 September 2021, 11:31:06 AM
Nah.... I really think that's a CGI'd faked photo, Nobby.
The 'mane' especially....it's not even remotely the right colour....

The 'feathers' and the tail might be real.

Cheers - Phil. :)

So your saying its "horse porn" Phil?  ie you take a some thing good looking and enhance it beyond belief in with the theory tat it then looks better than nature intended. Like Jordans chest a few years back
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: fsn on 04 September 2021, 10:07:23 PM
(https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/s640x640/241359747_3057394181151141_3553515902508025693_n.jpg?_nc_cat=1&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7nhiKjgqh84AX9Ax8ng&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=a55cec61162dced38185bc6112e739f8&oe=6158F794)(https://scontent.fman1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t45.1600-4/cp0/q75/spS444/p235x350/241156315_23848334258260642_7101257464460655002_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=67cdda&_nc_ohc=qlOqz8nBcnUAX96MDYi&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-2.fna&oh=5d327bee84a6d0b6a5b5426ff92a63a9&oe=6138A6E9)(https://scontent.fman1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/240592964_3912147672225229_3562828155375248911_n.jpg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=0debeb&_nc_ohc=kVJKd4nFPq8AX8k2aIx&_nc_ht=scontent.fman1-1.fna&oh=562db10cc13aba307cbe6ae533f476a0&oe=61385DE0)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Techno II on 05 September 2021, 07:57:56 AM
I have seen a gray with the most wonderful mane,at a show, a few years ago...must have taken the owner hours and hours to clean and brush it.

Maybe that first one is real......Just, somehow 'looks' wrong. :-\

Cheers - Phil. :)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 05 September 2021, 08:21:58 AM
On Facebook, I tend to receive a lot of 'photoshopped' pics of animals , natural events, scenic views. Some are very 'arty'... and some lovely 'looking' places... BUT getting a bit 'bored 'with it... just don't want to say so to posters.

There ARE horses with enormous manes / feathers / tails... but, as you say... 'Hair Needs Care'! lol.
And, getting a slap in the face from some Horse tails...!  ;D
Incidentally, before My time, Grandfather used to plait and ribbon mane and tail on horses drawing his Pig Swill Cart... for 'Empire Day' etc!  :)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 05 September 2021, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 04 September 2021, 07:09:47 PM
So your saying its "horse porn" Phil?  ie you take a some thing good looking and enhance it beyond belief in with the theory tat it then looks better than nature intended. Like Jordans chest a few years back

Ha ha... same era!  ;) Jordan looked fine!... then Hmmm!... then B****y silly! ;D

BACK TO CAV!!!  ;D
Are Pendraken Nap 'Standard Bearers' MEANT to carry 'REGIMENTAL' Standards... or 'Command Guidons / Pennants'? I an not sure at all about differences or possible usage.
Know that French Inf used Fanions...little musket flags... for formation. Don't know if other nations also did?
As Steve says... think Cav formated on Officers... but a 'Marker' may have been useful.

Didn't Tanks... Brit, anyway, fly 'pennants' on radio arials? Sometimes.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 September 2021, 09:24:56 AM
Still do
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 05 September 2021, 09:38:05 AM
Indeed, in WWII the penants show squadron, troop and commanders. Probably the same today.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 05 September 2021, 09:40:39 AM
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 05 September 2021, 09:24:56 AM
Still do

But, why? Tradition, recognition? A Red and yellow flag hardly 'camo'... so exercise only? Pennant wouldn't last long in trees / blast. Hence painted markings.
Does ultra modern armour have some sort of IFF on weapons systems? Do not have any idea!
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 05 September 2021, 09:44:39 AM
Tradition I guess.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 05 September 2021, 09:46:49 AM
As to electronics you'd have to as a current tankee. Moving tanks can't be camoflagued, they is big. Penants were supposed to indicate troops and squadrons quickly by sight. They so still have the geomentric shapes on turret sides, and call signs on turret rears.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 23 September 2021, 06:03:44 AM
Sorry, can' t post the pic... a FB posting.
But have now seen a Horse / Dragon!  :o
Green and with Scales!  ;D ;D ;D
Now, could have been 'photoshopped' , but pic showed horse being led, so think it a 'show' entry with an enormous amount of work done!
Just a thought for 'Fantasy' converters / painters!  ;)
For 'Fantasy' no reason why not Green / Blue/ / Pink Horses! LOL!  ;D

Or... you could REALLY put someone 'off stride' with your Cuirassiers...  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: FierceKitty on 23 September 2021, 06:38:03 AM
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 23 September 2021, 06:03:44 AM
Sorry, can' t post the pic... a FB posting.
But have now seen a Horse / Dragon!  :o
Green and with Scales!  ;D ;D ;D
Now, could have been 'photoshopped' , but pic showed horse being led, so think it a 'show' entry with an enormous amount of work done!
Just a thought for 'Fantasy' converters / painters!  ;)
For 'Fantasy' no reason why not Green / Blue/ / Pink Horses! LOL!  ;D

Or... you could REALLY put someone 'off stride' with your Cuirassiers...  ;D ;D ;D

And in reality. Polish hussars often dyed their horses, and I've read a wonderful account of how an Indian lent his grey to a cousin for a wedding; he was within his rights, since by the current system he owned the horse, but it came back painted with indelible multi-coloured spots. The Colonel Sahib was not amused. American tribesmen, of course, painted their horses as enthusiastically as themselves.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Heedless Horseman on 23 September 2021, 09:13:29 AM
Ooh! The Polish 'Hussars' have never been a field of interest... but, having googled, WOW! Some boys!
Any idea if Dye was 'to conform' to unit... or for 'extravagant effect'... colours?
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 23 September 2021, 06:03:44 AM
Sorry, can' t post the pic... a FB posting.
But have now seen a Horse / Dragon!  :o
Green and with Scales!  ;D ;D ;D
Now, could have been 'photoshopped' , but pic showed horse being led, so think it a 'show' entry with an enormous amount of work done!
Just a thought for 'Fantasy' converters / painters!  ;)
For 'Fantasy' no reason why not Green / Blue/ / Pink Horses! LOL!  ;D

Or... you could REALLY put someone 'off stride' with your Cuirassiers...  ;D ;D ;D

The Khmer (and maybe other SE Asian armies) did employ "Dragon cavalry".
I hope I don't disappoint any readers by stating these were horses with masks and bits attached.
This probably worked because the locals believed in dragon horses.

Here's Irregular's interpretation

(https://irregularminiatures.co.uk/Images%208/28mmT11,11b,12.jpg)


I never considered this lot in a gaming context:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81exSBkrSEL.__AC_SY300_SX300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Big Insect on 23 September 2021, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 09:26:41 AM
The Khmer (and maybe other SE Asian armies) did employ "Dragon cavalry".
I hope I don't disappoint any readers by stating these were horses with masks and bits attached.
This probably worked because the locals believed in dragon horses.

Here's Irregular's interpretation

(https://irregularminiatures.co.uk/Images%208/28mmT11,11b,12.jpg)


Sadly the so called Khmer 'Dragon' horses are even more of a myth than you might think.

Having been out to Cambodia and seen the actual carvings at Angkor and Bayon - the horses are not armoured in dragon armour at all - they are just very poorly rendered sculptures of horses (which were not at all common in Cambodia/Lao/Vietnam at this era). The western (wargamers) myth about 'Dragon Horses' comes from the WRG interpretation of the drawings by Michel Jacq-Hergoualc'h, in his book Armies of Angkor, where he 'creatively' interprets the Khmer carvings as being dragon-horses.

It's all a bit like non-existent Khmer light chariots - sculptures of which appear in great numbers on the Khmer monuments - but only in the sacred, mythical or religious friezes. These were mostly carved by 'imported' Celanese or Tamil sculptors employed by the Khmer God King, who brought their own traditional carving subject matter with them. Also there are as many chariots pulled by elephants, rhinos, lions, fish, crocodiles and garudas (mythical semi-human griffon-like creatures)* as there are ones drawn by horses. Some of the chariots are also drawn by 4 horse as well - but sculpted face-on - which is a really creative way of rendering them visually. All the purely military, historical friezes show only Infantry (spearmen, swordsmen, archers and crossbowmen) and Elephants in large numbers and very few cavalry - mostly in what appears to be a scouting or ADC type of role.
Even the cavalry depicted in the various allied contingents on The Bayon monument have very few cavalry in proportion to infantry and elephants. Horses generally don't do well in the heat and humidity of S.E.Asia. The only one we saw in 3 weeks in Cambodia looked very sorry for itself indeed!


Talking about another type of 'filly' - it's a bit like the inclusion of topless maiden guard in Khmer armies - more complete nonsense - where such figures are depicted they are again shown in the religious sections of the carvings - usually accompanying a Hindu deity in a heavenly battle.

NB: Khmer armies are an area of specialist research on my part - so sorry to bore on about it  :D

*an C11th Chinese source does refers to Khmer noble women being run-around down-town Angkor in 2 wheeled mini-chariots - pulled by a pair of goats! Now there's a modelling opportunity!!!

Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 11:11:32 AM
I think we can now agree that the WRG lists included some wishful thinking and liberal interpretations form art.
The one friends and I still chuckle about is (I think another East Asian army).

"Classed as regular since the wall sculpture depicts them marching in step".

It must get pretty boring composing 400+ lists.
The temptation to add a bit of variety to each one (I'm thinking of all the "Dark/Migration age Germanic tribes) must be hard to resist.

Otherwise 90% of lists would be.
200 Tribesmen.
12 nobles either on horses or with better armour.


Let's do Indian Chariots next.
Several sacred poem cycles, one battle against Alexander and a selection "deity on cart" sculptures.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Big Insect on 23 September 2021, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 11:11:32 AM
Let's do Indian Chariots next.
Several sacred poem cycles, one battle against Alexander and a selection "deity on cart" sculptures.

Indeed ... also lots of semi-naked/completely naked young ladies in various 'interesting' poses on assorted sculptures as well - but none in chariots as far as I am aware  :D

or

the effectiveness of super weapons - such as Roman anti-elephant wagons/carts - for example
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Ithoriel on 23 September 2021, 11:28:10 AM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 11:11:32 AM

"Classed as regular since the wall sculpture depicts them marching in step".

Yes, not possibly to do with sculptors banging out clones for ease and speed of production :)

Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 23 September 2021, 11:11:32 AM
Let's do Indian Chariots next.
Several sacred poem cycles, one battle against Alexander and a selection "deity on cart" sculptures.

I don't have the skill to read original sources but my understanding is that we have enough evidence of chariots to be certain they existed. States short of elephants, in particular, seem to have relied on chariots as a cheaper alternative.

I also believe at least one text suggests that if horses are in short supply, oxen can be substituted as chariot draught animals. Not sure how you represent that in DBA terms.

Even the much maligned Sumerian battle cars weren't reduced to employing "battle cattle" as draught animals!! :)
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: FierceKitty on 23 September 2021, 11:44:10 AM
Quote from: Heedless Horseman on 23 September 2021, 09:13:29 AM
Ooh! The Polish 'Hussars' have never been a field of interest... but, having googled, WOW! Some boys!
Any idea if Dye was 'to conform' to unit... or for 'extravagant effect'... colours?

Probably henna, for flamboyant chestnut red effects. As far as uniformity goes, it would be difficult to assemble enough greys to get everyone mounted that way. But uniform pennants in a unit, and possible cloaks, look acceptable from contemporary Polish paintings.
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Big Insect on 23 September 2021, 12:25:12 PM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 23 September 2021, 11:28:10 AM

Even the much maligned Sumerian battle cars weren't reduced to employing "battle cattle" as draught animals!! :)


I must admit I thought they were pulled by squids - or should that be equids!
Title: Re: Cavalry questions
Post by: Ithoriel on 23 September 2021, 02:42:08 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 23 September 2021, 12:25:12 PM
I must admit I thought they were pulled by squids - or should that be equids!

Onagers ... I thought they were invented by the Romans .... presumably they catapulted the battle cars into the action? ;)