Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Future War Commander => Topic started by: Zookie on 12 April 2021, 04:53:44 PM

Title: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Zookie on 12 April 2021, 04:53:44 PM
In the rule book it says that the game uses a "Random Points Modifier" to adjust point available to a battle group based on tactical doctrine. I see how the random points modifier is used, butt I cannot find anywhere in the rules that state how battle group points are adjusted based on doctrine.

Can someone tell me what page that is on or provide a brief summary. I want to build my own army list but I cannot find were doctrine and point costs are addressed or how the cost of air superiority is addressed when building your own battle group.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 12 April 2021, 05:11:28 PM
Ah well - if you were able to get onto the old Commander website still - I am sure Ian still has the link - there was an army list calculator calculator that you could download.
In that very same army list calculator there was an option to agree to all sorts of random points cost variables - at the click of a single button.
Lord knows how it work and lord knows why anybody would have wanted to use it - as it was a real menace. But it was there.

As to your other questions on points value - again these are some of the great mysteries of FWC. As it is to a certain extent in BKC & CWC as well. There is a major IT coding project that has been commissioned by Leon to "sort out" points costs once and for all. This will provide us with basic points costs and digital army list calculators.

Some things (like Air Superiority) currently just don't have costs - they are just what they are.
It is one of the reasons why we need to remodel the FWC points costs, when we get to FWCII.
In the mean time, I'd not worry about the cost of Air Superiority (for example). The costs for the different Tac.Docs are in the rules though.
There is also a cost variable around the Advanced Tech weaponry - which meant it was cheaper for the more advanced tech armies and hideously expensive for low tech ones. But again you need the downloadable FWC unit calculator to do that.

All these points issues are a legacy of Pendraken buying the rules from their original author, who knew a lot of these variables inside-out - in his head - but that knowledge was not transferred across with the sale. But the rules are playable and if we can get hold of the old calculator (I'll see if we can get a copy loaded onto this site somehow) you can produce new FWC lists easily. I did a number - such as the Prador list as well as the Cyber Undead (Necron) list in the past.

Not much help, I know, but it might easy the frustration ... you are not alone (none of us are)  :o :o :o
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Orcs on 12 April 2021, 08:21:47 PM
You can still get onto the website, Just managed to download the Unit cost zip file
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Leon on 12 April 2021, 09:10:20 PM
The FWC cost calculator is on the old Downloads page here: http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Downloads/default.aspx

The new builder is currently using the BKC-IV points values so we'll need to adjust those to fit any new points system we come up with.
Title: Re: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Battleback on 12 April 2021, 09:23:16 PM
Quote from: Leon on 12 April 2021, 09:10:20 PM
The FWC cost calculator is on the old Downloads page here: http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Downloads/default.aspx

The new builder is currently using the BKC-IV points values so we'll need to adjust those to fit any new points system we come up with.
Leon do you have a ETA for the new BKC4 army builder or did I miss the release?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Leon on 12 April 2021, 09:33:53 PM
Quote from: Battleback on 12 April 2021, 09:23:16 PM
Leon do you have a ETA for the new BKC4 army builder or did I miss the release?

No ETA at the moment I'm afraid, I'll be checking in again after we get moved to get an update.  Hopefully we'll have something ready in the next couple of months.
Title: Re: Re: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Battleback on 12 April 2021, 09:48:23 PM
Quote from: Leon on 12 April 2021, 09:33:53 PM
No ETA at the moment I'm afraid, I'll be checking in again after we get moved to get an update.  Hopefully we'll have something ready in the next couple of months.
Sounds good, thanks for the information!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Zookie on 12 April 2021, 11:26:05 PM
Thank you for the responses.  The FWC calculator is still up and working but does not address doctrine values. I am still pretty new to the Commander Series and am just starting with FWC. I think I might have possibility cracked the code of doctrine costs but if someone more experienced in the game could weight in and let me know if this sounds right or if it would at least make for a suitable house rule.

The rulebook states that the "Random Points Modifier" adjusts the points of the battlegroup based on tactical doctrine. The Random Points Modifier has six scores, so each scores may correlate to each doctrine. 

Since "Normal" has the least going for it it would seem like it would have the greatest bonus. So if I list them out it order printed I get this:

Normal: 25% point bonus
Flexible: 10% point bonus
Rigid: No bonus 
Mob: No bonus 
Swarm: 10% point penalty
Cyborg: 25% point penalty

Does this look about right when playing FWC when sorting out the overall advantages and disadvantages of each doctrine?

It seemed counter intuitive to me that normal would have more points to play with then rigid, mob or swarm. But as I read the manual it seems like the writer was not overly concerned about making a system that was above abuse and assumed that each player would would put a premium on a sensible narrative and sportsmanship. For example why air superiority is not given a value (honestly I am not sure how that could be fair because the value of superiority would depend so greatly on the army build and the opponent's army that it would be useless to assign any across the board value.

So I imagine that a rigid, mob or swarm army would outnumber a normal army but that would be based on their units being cheaper, not that their doctrine would allow for more points.

Anyway I can see that a simple sentence or two may have been omitted from then rule book that correlates the Random Points Modifier to the doctrine list. Does this seem sensible or is it not suitable for a house rule?
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 14 April 2021, 12:42:40 PM
Perfectly sensible for now

It is also a matter of combinations - if you give your Hunterscavenger armies - with rigid or mob tac.doc a lot of high-tech weaponry they will be very expensive (so you get fewer of them).
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: toxicpixie on 18 April 2021, 09:26:21 AM
Yeah, the not-Orc "not-Gargants" really suffered from that.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 30 May 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 14 April 2021, 12:42:40 PM
Perfectly sensible for now

It is also a matter of combinations - if you give your Hunterscavenger armies - with rigid or mob tac.doc a lot of high-tech weaponry they will be very expensive (so you get fewer of them).

Kravak!
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 30 May 2021, 01:44:05 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 30 May 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Kravak!
Stop swearing.

I suspect that the system I devised for our CWC games would be clumbersome for BKC IV. It's in Excell and has pages for various NATO and WarPact armies futher split down to Division type, all for roughly 1986. There are also pages for Finns and Sweeds due to some of the scenarios we have done over the years. It has points limits built iin, and most possible combinations, so a Soviet Tank Division has Tank companies for T55 and its upgrades, T62, T64 T72 and T80, also with upgrades, as well as BTR50, BMP1 and 2.

Thats complex enough, but with BKC covering form SCW to hopefully Korea (HINT Mark, Leon) with principle tanks changing roughly every 6 months it's going to take months to input the data. Size may well also be prohibitive for running on older lapotops and any tablet, with little or no chance on a phone.

The FWC calculator which is still there is no right, every thing costs too much when I use it.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 31 May 2021, 02:59:03 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 30 May 2021, 01:19:42 PM
Kravak!

Yes - but Kravak are really 'Predators' so should in theory be a High Tech Advanced doctrine army - with Stealth and adaptive camo. (IMHO)
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 31 May 2021, 06:19:53 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 31 May 2021, 02:59:03 PM
Yes - but Kravak are really 'Predators' so should in theory be a High Tech Advanced doctrine army - with Stealth and adaptive camo. (IMHO)

My take would be hight tech//stealth/adaptive camo but hunter scavengers so they get stuck into the hunt.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 01 June 2021, 09:43:56 AM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 31 May 2021, 06:19:53 PM
My take would be high tech//stealth/adaptive camo but hunter scavengers so they get stuck into the hunt.

The challenge is that Mob doctrine requires that they attack/assault if within initiative range - not really very 'Predator' like.
They are ruthless and savage (gratuitously violent) but not 'impetuous' - it is a possibility for an additional Special Characteristic - or a modification to the blood-thirsty characteristic maybe?
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: toxicpixie on 01 June 2021, 11:45:38 AM
It would suit  trophy hunting/close combat ethos though - if the opportunity to prove themselves hand to hand shows up they tend to take it.

Even against Xenomorphs!
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 01 June 2021, 12:58:04 PM
Predators hunt according to their opponent's capabilities and weapons.
Fire is met with fire, if you opponent wants to fight blade to blade, the honour is higher. Pure, unarmed, hand to hand is accorded the highest honours.
Unless you're an Alien, when all weapons are fair game!

So maybe being compulsory charge in hth range is fair, but the opponent would have to have a decent capability?

Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 01 June 2021, 01:11:06 PM
Quote from: toxicpixie on 01 June 2021, 11:45:38 AM
It would suit  trophy hunting/close combat ethos though - if the opportunity to prove themselves hand to hand shows up they tend to take it.
Even against Xenomorphs!

Very true but it doesn't seem to fit with the 'stealthy' hunter methodology.
Once in combat they would be particularly aggressive and ferocious - almost impetuous/uncontrollable - maybe it is an 'honour' thing
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 01 June 2021, 01:57:45 PM
Like a lion, ambush to chase ?
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 01 June 2021, 04:03:41 PM
If one combined:

Advanced Technology
High Strength Infantry
Guerilla Doctrine  from BKC iv
Adaptive camouflage

One might get torwards a reasonable depiction of the evil sods.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 01 June 2021, 04:09:24 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 01 June 2021, 04:03:41 PM
If one combined:

Advanced Technology
High Strength Infantry
Guerilla Doctrine  from BKC iv
Adaptive camouflage

One might get torwards a reasonable depiction of the evil sods.

Absolutely + HVP ranged weapons - nasty
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 01 June 2021, 04:17:08 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 01 June 2021, 04:09:24 PM
Absolutely + HVP ranged weapons - nasty

Hurrah!
Alll we need now  for the forthcoming Pendraken 10mm scifi range to provide suitable figures

Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Ithoriel on 01 June 2021, 05:51:07 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 01 June 2021, 04:17:08 PM
Hurrah!
Alll we need now  for the forthcoming Pendraken 10mm scifi range to provide suitable figures

SFX4 Alien predators (10)

(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3445/SFX4.jpg)
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Raider4 on 04 June 2021, 08:13:45 AM
So, Kar'Vak are not-Predators? Huh, I would never have guessed that.

Hard to imagine an army of such things - always struck me as working individually ("Predator") or in small groups (of three? "Alien vs. Predator" and "Predators").
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 04 June 2021, 10:16:43 AM
Quote from: Raider4 on 04 June 2021, 08:13:45 AM
So, Kar'Vak are not-Predators? Huh, I would never have guessed that.
Hard to imagine an army of such things - always struck me as working individually ("Predator") or in small groups (of three? "Alien vs. Predator" and "Predators").

Kra'Vaks are a GZG range of 6mm/15mm sci-fi figures/vehicles - the list is one of the older ones in the FWC army list book. But could do with an update IMHO.
And yes - Kra'Vak are supposed to represent Predators - just as GZG 'crustys' represent District 9 'prawns' as a way to circumvent potential copywrite issues  ;)

As to an army of Predators - they do operate as hunting parties - as we see in the 2nd film in the series (ingeniously titled Predator-2!) and again in one of the later films (I think it is Aliens v Predator) we see a 'Predator' city on their home-world - so they do appear to live in communities and so might be expected to take joint action together - either defensively or aggressively.
In Predator-2 there also appears to be a command structure or hierarchy amongst the 'hunting party'.

The FWC list is focused on grav tech and 'rail-gun' tech (High Impact Weaponry) - the latter I think is an incorrect depiction of their shoulder guns - which are much more like an HVP weapon than HIW (IMHO) but it needs Stealth and/or Adaptive Camo adding (which is the way that I play them).
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Ithoriel on 04 June 2021, 10:39:14 AM
I'd always assumed the Predators in the initial movies were young adults sent to planets to take on "dangerous animals" - like armed humans - to prove their worth. In the same way that some human tribes sent young men off to hunt lions or bears to prove their prowess.

The larger groups in the later movies seem to be on training missions, presumably to hone skills and raise rep?

I have no problem imagining armies of them. I would expect units to be tribal.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 04 June 2021, 03:42:48 PM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 01 June 2021, 05:51:07 PM
SFX4 Alien predators (10)

(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3445/SFX4.jpg)

Brill- but even for a small army we need more than one pose
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Raider4 on 05 June 2021, 01:17:38 PM
For UK-based viewers, "The Predator", the latest (last?) film in the series is on Channel 4 at 21:00 this evening.

Not seen this yet - the reviews were not good, ISTR - but will settle down and try & enjoy it this evening. Directed by Shane Black, who played the nerdy one in the original film.

The only other one in the series I've not seen is the second AvP film, which is terrible from what I've heard.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: fsn on 05 June 2021, 01:52:14 PM
I really wouldn't bother.

It is an excrescence in the annals of cinema. Nearly as bad as the Taron Egerton "Robin Hood", or Disney "Star Wars" ... or the 2nd series of "Batwoman".
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Techno II on 05 June 2021, 03:46:05 PM
I probably bought the DVD.....years ago.

If that's the one I'm thinking of.....The latter stuff was mostly a complete pile of poop.

Cheers - Phil :(
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 05 June 2021, 05:50:47 PM
Quote from: Raider4 on 05 June 2021, 01:17:38 PM
For UK-based viewers, "The Predator", the latest (last?) film in the series is on Channel 4 at 21:00 this evening.



Horrid beyond belief
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Raider4 on 06 June 2021, 06:34:07 AM
Oh dear, that was just terrible. Easily the worst of the four films.
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: fsn on 06 June 2021, 07:31:27 AM
You can't say you weren't warned.  :P



Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: DecemDave on 06 June 2021, 11:16:09 AM
Well I liked it!     But then I stuck with 1/72 plastics for decades while others went for those new fangled metal thingies.

Just wait till those killer mutant tardigrades land.  Then we'll have real problems.  :d :d :d

PS

I wish they would stop beaming out radio signals that we are here.  Any species with the technology to reach us could wipe us out unless they pick up this film transmission and believe its a documentary.

Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 06 June 2021, 02:18:44 PM
[quote author=DecemDave link=topic=20769.msg327762#msg327762 date=1622974569

I wish they would stop beaming out radio signals that we are here.  Any species with the technology to reach us could wipe us out unless they pick up this film transmission and believe its a documentary.


[/quote]
I am  more worried abou them seeing  the 'talent' shows
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 07 June 2021, 03:16:42 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 06 June 2021, 02:18:44 PM

I am  more worried about them seeing  the 'talent' shows


I think that these are actually a defensive measure - like The Voice or The Masked Singer or The Wall, or all those 'Bake-off' looki-likey show (please save us all from Glow-Up!!!).
Any alien invaders would just think we were some sort of socially retarded misfit species* and stay well clear, in case it was contagious.

(*that is probably closer to the truth than we'd like to think)

** I better watch what I a typing here or my potential career in 1st class test cricket might hit the rocks in 10 years time  :-X
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 07 June 2021, 03:42:25 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 07 June 2021, 03:16:42 PM
** I better watch what I a typing here or my potential career in 1st class test cricket might hit the rocks in 10 years time  :-X

I rather suspect that any potential cricket career is long gone Mark
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: flamingpig0 on 08 June 2021, 07:52:10 AM
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 07 June 2021, 03:42:25 PM
I rather suspect that any potential cricket career is long gone Mark

Depends how soon we develop cyber enhancements- Mark could potentially have a long career as a champion cyborg cricketer
Title: Re: Question about doctrines and unit cost.
Post by: Big Insect on 08 June 2021, 09:54:33 AM
I can think of no worse punishment!

But actually I can ...

Being forced to watch most forms of ITV or BBC TV shows on an hour by hour basis - I can almost feel my brain cells dying as I think that thought!