Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Pendraken Rules! => Cold War Commander => Topic started by: Zookie on 06 April 2021, 08:01:37 PM

Title: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Zookie on 06 April 2021, 08:01:37 PM
Any chance of getting an updated ETA on when we might see CWC II?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 06 April 2021, 08:32:23 PM
Sadly it's been delayed due to our move to the new premises.  I'd hoped to get the beta version complete and out to the playtesters before we started moving but I completely failed I'm afraid and didn't have the time to get it done.  We'll have most of the move done in about 2-3 weeks and then I can focus a bit of brain space to CWC2 again.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Techno II on 07 April 2021, 07:35:37 AM
As that was your first post...Welcome to the forum, Zookie !

Cheers - Phil. :)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Superscribe on 01 July 2021, 01:40:06 PM
What is latest regarding availability of CWC2?
Vmt
Chris
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 01 July 2021, 03:44:09 PM
Quote from: Superscribe on 01 July 2021, 01:40:06 PM
What is latest regarding availability of CWC2?
Vmt
Chris

No change from the above I'm afraid, still trying to carve out time to continue working on it.  Getting the new website has taken up most of the past month, as well as getting the Napoleonic project back on track.  I've got it on my schedule for Mon/Tues all being well, so if I can get the photos edited in and check the formatting I'll be able to send it out to the proofreader/playtester group for feedback.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Itinerant Hobbyist on 01 July 2021, 03:48:41 PM
Ready to help if needed.

Quote from: Leon on 01 July 2021, 03:44:09 PM
No change from the above I'm afraid, still trying to carve out time to continue working on it.  Getting the new website has taken up most of the past month, as well as getting the Napoleonic project back on track.  I've got it on my schedule for Mon/Tues all being well, so if I can get the photos edited in and check the formatting I'll be able to send it out to the proofreader/playtester group for feedback.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 02 August 2021, 04:10:50 PM
Any news ?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 02 August 2021, 10:26:17 PM
Nothing yet I'm afraid, just not enough hours in the day at the moment.  I'll post here as soon as there's anything to update.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 August 2021, 06:21:40 AM
Quote from: Leon on 02 August 2021, 10:26:17 PM
Nothing yet I'm afraid, just not enough hours in the day at the moment.  I'll post here as soon as there's anything to update.

Anything I can help with ?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 03 August 2021, 10:46:27 AM
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 August 2021, 06:21:40 AM
Anything I can help with ?

Thanks Ian, not much at the moment unfortunately.  It's just the photos and formatting really and then I can get it over to Mark to confirm he's happy with it, before it goes out to playtesters.  We're wondering whether Salute is a good release target as it's always better to launch these things at a big event and it'll tie in nicely with Christmas as well.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 August 2021, 11:37:54 AM
Try for Salute. Can certainly do proof reading and may be some testing as well.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 03 August 2021, 12:56:02 PM
Quote from: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 August 2021, 11:37:54 AM
Try for Salute. Can certainly do proof reading and may be some testing as well.

Excellent, I'll be in touch as soon as we've got something ready.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 03 August 2021, 12:59:42 PM
Get me back channel
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Itinerant Hobbyist on 06 September 2021, 06:52:45 AM
Still standing by...looking forward to the release
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 06 September 2021, 10:39:16 AM
You know that thing ... when you are driving on holiday and have the car full of the kids and a lone voice pipes up from the back seat ...

" are we there yet?"  =)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Shedman on 06 September 2021, 12:08:39 PM
What period will CWC II cover?

The blurb says First Indo-China War right up to the present day - that's over 70 years



Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 06 September 2021, 12:17:55 PM
It'll cover post-Korean War through to around 1990, so just before the Gulf War.  
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 07 September 2021, 07:00:03 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 06 September 2021, 10:39:16 AM
You know that thing ... when you are driving on holiday and have the car full of the kids and a lone voice pipes up from the back seat ...

" are we there yet?"  =)

Most wargamers are child-like beings.

Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 08 September 2021, 11:22:05 AM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 07 September 2021, 07:00:03 PM
Most wargamers are child-like beings.

too true - it is what makes us so lovable  :x
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: DecemDave on 08 September 2021, 11:32:10 AM
Quote from: Big Insect on 08 September 2021, 11:22:05 AM
too true - it is what makes us so lovable  :x
are we there yet?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 08 September 2021, 12:30:42 PM
Quote from: DecemDave on 08 September 2021, 11:32:10 AM
are we there yet?

Sigh! sadly not ... stuck in a 40 mile tail-back on the M1 northbound just after Watford Gap services - and we've eaten all the white bread, margarine and spam sandwiches in the Tupperware box already - so we'll just have to sing another song (again) or play a game of pub-sign cricket to keep you all occupied.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Ithoriel on 08 September 2021, 02:11:27 PM
#The wheels on the bus go round and round ....# :)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 08 September 2021, 05:56:40 PM
I don't know why I am getting excited about CWC II, it's not as if I know anyone local who plays post ww2 conflicts.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 08 September 2021, 06:31:12 PM
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 08 September 2021, 05:56:40 PM
I don't know why I am getting excited about CWC II, it's not as if I know anyone local who plays post ww2 conflicts.

Good to hear that you are 'excited' about it though.
It will of course be a brand-new format, glossy CWCII - with lots of added extras and more vehicle stats than ever (to get wrong and argue over - of course) many more than WW2.

But I am not looking forward to the Errata phase at all  :'( :'( :'(
(PS: I might be on holiday at that time ... for a very long time!)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Raider4 on 08 September 2021, 06:44:07 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 08 September 2021, 12:30:42 PM
Sigh! sadly not ... stuck in a 40 mile tail-back on the M1 northbound just after Watford Gap services . . .  or play a game of pub-sign cricket to keep you all occupied.

On the motorway? That might be a long game . . .
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Battleback on 09 September 2021, 12:33:51 AM
I'm excited as well, I guess mainly because it's a period I've never played and I really enjoy BKC4. I'll probably just stick to the early to mid period of the cold war, I don't have much interest in more modern conflicts. Looking forward to getting my hands on the book.

Question, Will there be a pre-order?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 09 September 2021, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: Battleback on 09 September 2021, 12:33:51 AM
I'm excited as well, I guess mainly because it's a period I've never played and I really enjoy BKC4. I'll probably just stick to the early to mid period of the cold war, I don't have much interest in more modern conflicts. Looking forward to getting my hands on the book.

Question, Will there be a pre-order?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

When you say early-to-mid - what time frame are you looking at? I'm interested as I have looked at 'banding' the period into an early mid and late, partly to cover the introduction and proliferation of certain weapons and armour. The pre- T72/Challenger/Abrahams era certainly gives you more 'toys' to play with on table, as the cost of these wee-beasties is significant.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 09 September 2021, 12:52:26 PM
I suspect you meant T80 in your last post Mark, T64/72 are mid to late 60's.
Title: Re: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Battleback on 10 September 2021, 02:21:09 AM
Quote from: Big Insect on 09 September 2021, 09:33:57 AM
When you say early-to-mid - what time frame are you looking at? I'm interested as I have looked at 'banding' the period into an early mid and late, partly to cover the introduction and proliferation of certain weapons and armour. The pre- T72/Challenger/Abrahams era certainly gives you more 'toys' to play with on table, as the cost of these wee-beasties is significant.
I don't know a lot about the Cold War and I'm sure others will have a better idea about this but to me this is what comes to my mind to break up the periods.

Early - basically post WW2, Korean War through to early Vietnam War.

Mid War - About mid Vietnam War to the early 80's

Late War - would be when we start seeing early versions of the modern tanks like the Abrams. So the early/mid 80's to early 90's.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 10 September 2021, 09:59:10 AM
Sounds very much where my thinking was going Battleback

And yes I meant T80 (not T70)  :D
Title: Re: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Battleback on 10 September 2021, 01:12:36 PM
Quote from: Big Insect on 10 September 2021, 09:59:10 AM
Sounds very much where my thinking was going Battleback

And yes I meant T80 (not T70)  :D
I think it makes sense to break up the periods in the rules. It seems there are 3 distinct levels of technology when it comes to the cold war. And breaking it up will make setting up games easier.

I look forward to reading the rules! I would definitely buy into a pre-order if Leon decides to do one; especially if it included a Patton tank 😉

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Raider4 on 10 September 2021, 03:47:37 PM
Basically breaking it down to whether the British were fielding Centurion, Chieftain or Challenger then?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 11 September 2021, 07:05:45 PM
pretty much yes
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 17 October 2021, 01:24:24 PM
Do the new rules go up to the 1st  Gulf War and si it going to include army lists or will the army lists be online?
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 18 October 2021, 01:06:38 PM
I think the plan is to cut off around 1990 but there will be lists available for the 1st Gulf War.  The lists will all be online downloads rather than in the book, so we can add and edit those whenever needed.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: fred. on 18 October 2021, 05:51:56 PM
Quote from: Leon on 18 October 2021, 01:06:38 PM
I think the plan is to cut off around 1990 but there will be lists available for the 1st Gulf War.  The lists will all be online downloads rather than in the book, so we can add and edit those whenever needed.

Can I suggest that you include a few lists in the book - mainly from the ability to provide a complete package in one book?

I get that having the majority of the army lists online makes a lot of sense - for a lot of reasons - but its a bit disappointing to get a nice new rule book and then not have any example army lists to use as reference whilst you are going through the rules.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Steve J on 18 October 2021, 06:08:28 PM
I'd agree with having a few lists in the book, say Vietnam, one of the Arab-Israeli Wars and the 'classic' 1980's Cold War core forces.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: paulr on 18 October 2021, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: Steve J on 18 October 2021, 06:08:28 PM
I'd agree with having a few lists in the book, say Vietnam, one of the Arab-Israeli Wars and the 'classic' 1980's Cold War core forces.

So a few = at least 15 :-\

The challenge is once you add one or two there are so many more people would want...
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Ithoriel on 18 October 2021, 07:42:11 PM
For me, the attraction of BKC was the "all in one book" approach.

Printed rules with online army lists would definitely turn me off.

There again the period to be covered by CWC doesn't interest me so I guess I am not the target audience.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: fred. on 18 October 2021, 09:18:32 PM
By a few, I meant the main lists for one conflict. Not list for multiple conflicts.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 18 October 2021, 09:42:54 PM
Quote from: fred. on 18 October 2021, 05:51:56 PM
Can I suggest that you include a few lists in the book - mainly from the ability to provide a complete package in one book?

I get that having the majority of the army lists online makes a lot of sense - for a lot of reasons - but its a bit disappointing to get a nice new rule book and then not have any example army lists to use as reference whilst you are going through the rules.

I would agree with that
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 18 October 2021, 11:24:57 PM
Yeah, we thought this might prove contentious...!  The problems with putting the lists in the book are multiple and some of them are quite a big issue:

Size/Weight - The bigger the book the higher the print costs and the more they cost to post out.  Currently I think a copy of BKC costs us about £11 to ship to the States so it's not far off 50% of the price of the book.  We're right on the weight boundary as well, so if the same book creeps over 750g the shipping costs suddenly jump to £20+.  With shipping costs going up sharply at the moment this is only going to get worse in coming years.  At the moment we're charging £8 postage for those customers so we lose £3 per BKC, but that could be a £12+ loss per book which isn't ideal.  We could charge more for the shipping but the sales would be reduced as a result, which isn't great either. 

Making the lists separate would reduce print costs by about 40% as well, allowing us to bring the price of the rulebook down.

Updates - As always, there'll be updates and errata for the army lists down the line.  With online lists we can update them whenever we like and folks can get the latest versions by clicking a button, rather than needing to go through and annotate a physical copy.  It also means that each list can be as comprehensive as we want without it affecting page counts and print costs.

Expansion - With online lists we can have extensive lists for multiple conflicts and theatres without any problems.  We could have 100 army lists if we want to without it resulting in a massive printed tome that won't fit through your letterbox.

The plan was for the lists to be available as simple pdf files for folks to download and print at home, or use on a tablet/computer instead.  We would also offer all army lists in a hardcopy version direct from us, for a nominal 30p-50p, where we'd print and supply them as we would any other order.  So you could buy the book and printed Vietnam lists for £20-ish and away you go.  If you decide to do the Arab-Israeli conflicts you could get those printed lists for less than £1.

We could put some lists in there but then the debate over which ones begins.  If it's Cold War Commander then the Cold War lists seems appropriate but we don't have figure ranges to support those yet.  We could put the Vietnam lists in there instead but then folks will ask why the Cold War lists aren't present... 

If this is going to be a massive issue for folks then we can discuss it by all means but having the rules + lists in one book is adding costs for everyone and we wanted to try and bring those down as much as possible.

This was also going to be the method for the next BKC printrun, which I was going to send off next month. 
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: paulr on 18 October 2021, 11:57:08 PM
Quote from: fred. on 18 October 2021, 09:18:32 PM
By a few, I meant the main lists for one conflict. Not list for multiple conflicts.

I thought you did Fred, the challenge is of course which conflict and then how many lists you need....

I hope my comment didn't come across as snarky, it was intended to illustrate the challenge

I think separate lists is the best option but I am not really the target audience; I use another rule system for WWII & Moderns  :o :-[
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: sultanbev on 19 October 2021, 09:09:53 AM
I'm all for keeping the lists separate from the rules, as everyone will have their favourite unit missed off their particular list, so having downloadable lists makes them easy to update.
It also makes the rules book lighter, which is always a bonus if you're going to and from club meets.

I always follow the mantra that rules are rules, data is data, and altering/updating the latter should not alter the former. If it does that's bad writing.

If your rules book has 100 lists in, but you'll only be using one particular one on that night, why carry the other 99? Also leaving out the lists means you can ensure you have enough space for all the rules you want to include.

I also think of the Cold War as split into broad decadal themes - 1956, 1967, 1973, 1985, 1989-90ish, but when you get into the nitty-gritty of organisations, even 1983 is different from 1985.

Maybe people aren't really asking for army lists in the book, but vehicle/gun/infantyr/aircraft stats, so you could have 3 lists of data, rather than organisational lists - NATO, Warpac/China, Non-aligned, each detailing all the relevant vehicles, infantry platoons, guns and planes. However each list would be huge! But still a lot less space than choosing a selection of theatre specific lists....
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 19 October 2021, 09:55:17 AM
ONLINE or PRINTED ARMY LISTS

I think all the comments above illustrate some of the challenges that Leon & I have been working with around CWCII.

One of the advantage of the on-line lists is likely to be (subject to programming capability) an easy to use (and correct/update) online army list calculator resource, that links into the army lists.
This will allow quicker game prep and the ability for players to 'play-around' with formations etc. and then print them out.
Due to the way the new army lists have been developed, by cross-referencing a data-base of standard vehicle stats, printing off specific lists may be possible - but we need to check that out. But even if it was I'd suggest that that needs to be done on an individual basis.

I/we had considered putting a couple of lists in the rules book as examples.
However, as we have broken down the single NATO and Warsaw Pact lists, that were in CWC I, into their distinctive component parts in CWC II, having just a single NATO and Warsaw Pact list printed in CWC II (which would have been my original intention) is no longer possible. But I can look at this, as we will need something in the rules that explains how the army lists work and interface with the main body of the rules.

Normally, I'm all for having lists and rules in a single hard-copy document, but with CWC II, due to the volume of data involved, this is (as Leon has stated very eloquently) impractical for lots of reasons. With hindsight I wish we'd treated BKCIV in the same way.

I suppose there might be an option to set up a printed army list on a print-on demand basis (LuLu?) but that would be very much a future project and one we would need to consider very carefully, due to the on-going work/economics involved in maintaining it.

HISTORICAL SCOPE
As previously stated - my own preference is to keep the rules to a defined Cold War era timeframe.
So to me that starts with the end of WW2 and ends with the fall of the Berlin Wall & Soviet led communism (Nov.89) and possibly the collapse of the Soviet Union (Dec'91).

I view the 1st Gulf War (2 Aug 1990 – 28 Feb 1991) as a very separate/distinctive step in the evolution of modern warfare (primarily due to command & control) and one that needs its own separate supplement (at some point).
The challenge of extending the rules is primarily around the use of a single d:6 combat dice and the extent to which you can squeeze that mechanism to cope with a post-war T34/85 at one end of the time-frame and an Abrahams at the other!

As previously stated in this thread I also see the big steps in the evolution of armoured warfare (in this period) broken down into 3 large phases (whilst totally agreeing with Sultanbev on his 5 stages). The fact that these 3 stages coincide (broadly) with the development of British Main Battle Tanks (Centurion, Chieftain and Challenger) is coincidental. However, this sub-divisioning (is that a word?) is unlikely to play a major part in shaping the rules or lists, but just helps to orientate a brand new Cold War player to the shape of the era and the forces they may wish to create.

There are also (potentially) likely to be Supplements to cope with specific wars/campaigns (Southern Africa) and areas of potential conflict that are off the normal cold war map - such as South America (for example). After all, whilst there were some very real actual wars/conflicts with the period - this set of rule is primarily aimed at the potential conflict, that never thankfully happened, between NATO and the Warsaw Pact, in Central and Western Europe.

Hopefully that is helpful

Mark
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Steve J on 19 October 2021, 11:15:35 AM
The big selling point of the BKC/CWC/FWC sets was that the book was a one stop shop with everything in it you needed to play. But as outlined above there are issues with this model going forward.

In terms of the rules, I think you need to have a couple of lists in the book to help understand certain examples, weapon types etc that would make things more clear IMHO. I would suggest NATO and Warsaw Pact early - mid '80's.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: sultanbev on 19 October 2021, 11:52:19 AM
Yes, I've done that in helping to write Divisions of Steel - one example within the rule book of how to use the army list, taking snapshots of parts of the army list to explain as you go along.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Big Insect on 20 October 2021, 09:02:40 AM
I'm also looking at representing the conversion of a real life OOB (mid-1980s Soviet MRR) to table top (if we can get hold of a decent quality image of an original Soviet OOB?) - by including an image of the MMR OOB and then a photo of the table-top formation - hopefully that might help players visualise the concept around conversation of OOBs.

As there is no single NATO list anymore (this can be built up using the various country lists) putting in a mid-'80's NATO list would be a challenge - but I am likely to use a West German list and a 1st Line Soviet force instead.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: paulr on 20 October 2021, 07:58:51 PM
The MRR to the table top is a really good idea :)

Two good representative lists :)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Prophaniti on 20 October 2021, 09:14:18 PM
As a likely customer I can completely understand the need for army lists to be online.  From BKC I do like the lists in the book, so would agree with those that have suggested two lists.  Pick two opposing forces where the lists are contained and leave the crest for download.
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: Leon on 26 October 2021, 09:55:08 PM
I posted this reply to a Facebook query so probably best to put it here as well:

"The bad news is that CWC-2 won't be appearing in time for Salute, despite our best efforts. I've spent most of the past 6 weeks up until 1am/2am every night going through and checking/formatting/inserting pics but there just wasn't enough hours in the day to get it finished in time.

There is some good news in that I finished all of my formatting work and sent it over to the author last Friday to see if there's any final tweaks he wants to make. Once we've done that we can bounce it out to the proofreaders for final feedback.

While all that's going on I'll be formatting the lists and uploading those for people to start looking at.

Finally, I know a lot of people are waiting for this and there's a lot of frustration that it's taking so long. With moving to the new unit and all of the renovation work, then trying to get the shop sorted and fitted out, plus now the shows starting up again, every day is already crammed with priority work and it's been extremely difficult to find the time for the rules.

Some of you might have noticed that we've barely released anything for over 6 months now either, which is another casualty of the workload at Pendraken HQ. We're at the point now where we're having to get the staff in for extra days to focus purely on getting the unit/shop sorted out, as it's just too much work for me to keep doing on my evenings/weekends.

Anyway, apologies for the long reply. I'll update as soon as the rules have gone off to the proofreaders and we can get this sorted for you."
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: paulr on 27 October 2021, 12:58:12 AM
Look after yourself Leon, after all its only a game

Ducks behind parapets  ;)
Title: Re: CWC II ETA?
Post by: flamingpig0 on 27 October 2021, 09:54:05 PM
We will enjoy it all the more when it does arrive.