Hi Chaps
I know that some of you play ITLSU (Hi Paul!) so I'm hoping you can help with a couple of queries
1) Battalions are the key activation unit in the game, and seem to be composed of companies, and then stands representing individual platoons. When a battalion activates, does the whole battalion do the same thing? Or is it each company, or can each platoon be given a different order? I'm pretty sure individual platoon stands aren't ordered, But can't work out if Companies (around 4 stands) are what gets moved and used for firing?
2) Western Front actions - anyone used them for this, 1914 looks fairly straight forward, but lots of elements for 1916+ seem to be covered too?
Thanks in advance
Fred
Hello. Hope I can help with Qu.1
Yes orders are issued at infantry battalion/cavalry regiment level, which in turn applies to each of its 'sub-units' (company/squadron). Say a battalion is given an 'Attack' order, I would play that it is legitimate for a company to stay stationary and provide fire support whilst other companies conduct the actual assault. The battalion commander is using his sub-units to best effect to follow the brigadier's order.
I've played scenarios where individual bases (platoons) can be positioned separately, but usually on 'Hold' orders for the defensive unit as a whole. Individual bases on their own or as remnants of companies, don't tend to fare too well against larger sub-units, unless in hard cover.
Regards
Martin
Thanks Martin, that makes sense
Is there a distance a company must stay within of other company of the same battalion?
Or do they tend to stay close to stay in command range for rallying, rather than it being a hard rule?
No hard rule for distance apart as I read it. Sub-units could be out on a limb if required. However, they need to within 4" of the Bn HQ to benefit for suppression removal, or else they are reliant on the brigadier's command pips or a card eg. Stiff Upper Lip, for that. Also need to be within 3" of another unit for potential flank support in close combat.
Martin has provided good answers to question 1
A couple of extra points:
- companies are the unit of movement and fire
- suppression is applied to companies so they may move at different rates, or even be forced backwards
2) Western Front actions - we have used them extensively for 1914 actions, there are some widely used 1914 amendments from the old Yahoo Group (Unit & Leadership) that we can share
There is an article, Storm of Dice in the 2011 Summer Special which provides amendments for 1915-1919, we have not tried them
Thanks both.
Paul if you can share the 1914 doc, that would be great. Much of the additional material for ITLSU seems to be on Yahoo.
I've sent you a PM with the 1914 info, the tables would be gobbledygook to most on the forum
Thanks Paul
We had our first game of ITLSU on Friday (it was meant to be two remote players, but ended up with me hosting and playing, and one remote player)
We played 1914, French vs Germans, a simple meeting engagement of 2 battalions and 2 guns per side.
We both enjoyed the game, felt more like WWI, than GEG 1914 rules. I think we got most of the core rules right, but there are a few bits that I would like to check on - not least as the rules are very imprecise when it comes to units and sub-units.
Suppression - is this tracked at the sub-unit (Company) level of the unit (Battalion) level? We played sub-unit, as that is where shooting was being resolved from. The downside to this, is that very rarely did companies rack up enough suppression to fall back. The only time this came into play was 2 German Coy defending a village, who where suffering fewer kills, so ended up with 12+ suppression on 1 remaining stand.
MGs - we played with 2 attached to each battalion. And effectively played with them attached to 2 separate companies. But on some re-reading I wonder if they are meant to be kept together within 4" of the Bttn CO?
Artillery - we had 2 guns per side, which activated on a single card. This seemed very deadly throwing 8d6, and often being at short range (less than 30"). Should each gun have its own card, even if deployed as a battery? As they get to fire on the Tea Break card, not sure how much difference this makes.
Brigadier - can he use his Command Pips to activate a battalion (as if their card had been turned)? Or can he just activate them to move? If it is for any thing (which is what we played) it seems pretty powerful.
Orders - this is probably the bit we struggled most with. While the names indicate what they mean, the rules for them are so vague as to be meaningless. I can't see why (when attacking) you wouldn't just give Engage orders to units. As they get to move up, then shoot, then attack.
Attack and Advance orders seem to have little practical difference - other than Attack lets you vary your speed a bit. But Attack orders don't seem to let you shoot at the enemy, other than while moving forwards.
I do like the idea of these - and they seem to work well for blinds. But once troops are deployed they seem a bit less useful. I assume they are meant to give the strategic direction, rather than the close tactical direction?
We ended up with both of us giving matching orders Advance to Village and Advance to Wood. Which meant one side reached the objective first - and the other would then want to shoot. By the wood the French where shot out of it, and their remaining company fell back to a fence line. But in retrospect this was not part of their orders, but felt appropriate at a tactical level.
Base and Table size - we played with French on 30mm square bases, and the Germans on 40x30mm bases. On approximately 5'x4' table. This seemed quite a lot of troops on the table. I'm not sure if the larger bases make this seem more crowded? We can play 8'x4 but find that a bit smaller table is better for remote gaming.
Morning Fred
Paul and l play a lot of ITLSU so can answer our interpretation of the rules....l'm in the office today for work but I will get back to you tonight when I get home.
Cheers
Peter
Thanks Peter
Okay in answer to your questions this is how we interpreted the rules:
Its been a whlle since we played WW1 but I got out my copy of the rules so pretty sure this is correct:
Suppression - Yes it is done at company rather than battalion level. We use surpression markers for each company that record any surpressions for the current turn and any culmilative ones. The markers are adjusted at the end of the turn after all shooting allowed by the turn of the tea break card has been adjudicated. All current turn suppressions are moved to the culmative total. Partially suppressed units can not move full distance remember, but they will only retreat if they have more suppressions than movement allowance.
MG's - Remember each MG model represents 2 real weapons and in 1914 they were not formed into specific MG companies, each British infantry battalion having a single MG platoon of 4 guns (i.e. 2 models), while a cavalry regiment has a single MG section of just 2 guns (1 model). You have attached the 2 MG models to separate companies which is correct, but they are counted as part of the company that they are attached to rather than coming under direct command of the battalion CO (though the batallion CO can activate a company with an attached MG when the battalion's card is drawn).
Artillery - Each artillery model represents 2 real weapons and artillery should be used sparingly numbers wise (especially over 77mm/18pdr calibres). We normally give each stand a separate card. 8D6 can be acheived if you are firing at enfladed targets etc but normally they will be max of 6D6? (4D6 per stand plus 2D6 extra if at short range). Also remember that artiillery and MG's can only fire in the "tea break" phase at the end of the turn if they have not already been activated during the turn.
Brigade Commanders - A Brigadier can do the following actions according to Part 6.2 of the rules if his card is turned:
• Issues and changes orders (costs 1 pip)
• May remove suppression either directly to units within 18" or via signallers using dice as per their leadership rating for units outside 18" distant – costs 1 pip (see below and rules on Suppression)
• May act in absence of Forward Observer
• May – on the turn of his card - activate any unit with 18" directly (1 pip) or motivate them via a signal base if they are over 18" away (1 extra pip per signal base used)
So brigade commanders can do much more than just order a unit to move.
Orders - Units with attack orders must move at at least half speed towards their designated objective - they can fire at and melee with enemy stands etc but must receive fresh orders once they reach/take their objective. Advance to such and such place orders mean that a unit must move at full speed towards that place.
Blinds - Only used until the unit that they represent is spotted by the enemy or the unit "decloaks" and activates to shoot and or fight.
Table size - we normally play on a 6 x 4 table and use a brigade a side (3 - 4 battalions plus any supporting units). All our stuff is 10mm Pendraken figures with infantry on 25mm x 25mm bases and cavalry on 30mm x 30mm bases.
Here's a AAR report of a game we fought some years ago.......my flikr pictures are still uploaded but you will need to click on the links to see them.....http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,10436.0.html
Hope that helps
Cheers
Peter
Lets see if Peter & I agree ;)
Suppression - You played this correctly - it is tracked at the sub-unit (Company) level, the amount of suppression depends on how much cover units have so being forced back only happens if they survive
MGs - with only 2 per battalion attaching out to companies make sense, later in the war you get companies of MGs with up to 9 stands which can be deadly if massed and these have their own CO
Artillery - we use a card per section (gun), we also require guns or their spotter to spot the target to restrict the available targets
Brigadier - Yes he uses a Command Pip to activate only one battalion (as if their card had been turned) so long as their card has not already been turned, the unit can not also receive an order change [it may cost more command
Infantry brigades must be stationary to use command pips and must be within 18" or 36" via a signaler costing an extra command pip
The Brigadier only activates once per turn, on the first of his cards. If they are too effective try using Klinkerhoffen or Lord Melchet ;)
Orders - they are a bit vague but there are important differences
Attack: must advance at least half move and can go into close combat and gives advantage in close combat
Advance to: must move full move (can end up very exposed), will change to hold orders if enemy spotted on position
Engage: will stop and open fire once in short/effective/extreme range depending on range ordered, decent troops can convert to attack order
We use attack to use the bayonet, advance if moving to somewhere unoccupied, engage for good troops to give them flexibility
Base and Table size - we use 30x30 for cavalry (mounted or dismounted) and 25x25 for infantry, the larger bases would make it feel more crowded
A brigade a side on a 6'x4' gives a good game
Now time to compare X_X
We were posting at the same time & I posted before reading Peter's post
We agree #:-S
Thanks both - seems we largely got it right then!
Artillery - will add in a card for each gun. The 8d6 was for 2 guns firing, but I have now realised we weren't giving them the +2 dice for short range. And yes we were only firing them on the Tea Break card if they hadn't fired earlier in the turn.
Brigadier - makes sense, and I think was what we did. I think it is the change in wording from activate to motivate when using a signal base that had raised the question with me. It seems that with them having 2 (or more cards) and a fair number of command points they are very useful - especially in a smaller sized game.
Orders, I am struggling to see why (from a pure rules perspective) you would ever choose Advance over Attack. As with Attack you can move at half to full speed, and can engage the enemy. With Advance you have very little option to react to unknowns. But thematically it really feels they should be two different orders.
Quote from: fred. on 16 February 2021, 08:16:20 AM
Thanks both - seems we largely got it right then!
Indeed - I hope you find inspiration to play further ITLSU games :-bd
We must try and fit in a 1914/15 or 1917 game in our roster this year too....
Yep, will be playing more. It's been good to get WWI games in over the last few months, and ITLSU gives a good game.
I'm sure we will be trying 1916+ before too long.
Quote from: fred. on 16 February 2021, 08:16:20 AM
Thanks both - seems we largely got it right then!
...
Orders, I am struggling to see why (from a pure rules perspective) you would ever choose Advance over Attack. As with Attack you can move at half to full speed, and can engage the enemy. With Advance you have very little option to react to unknowns. But thematically it really feels they should be two different orders.
I would normally use Attack or even Engage if the troops are good enough to convert to attack orders
I would use Advance if I wasn't sure I wanted the unit to fight for the location as they will go to hold orders if enemy are spotted on the position. It is also useful for 'advancing' to the rear, i.e. retiring
Played our 3rd game last night, a fairly small scenario, but good fun again.
A couple of things to check with those of you more familiar with the rules:
Blinds - from my reading spotting is an active action, i.e. a unit or blind can only attempt to spot an enemy blind when it activates. It can always attempt to spot when activated, without penalty on moving or firing. This means that it is possible for troops on a blind to move up very close to the enemy, then deploy, and shoot at them?
We had a French unit under a blind in a wood on the flank, move across to the centre of the table where the action was, and reinforce the defenders in another wood just a few inches from the Germans. The Germans had failed to spot this blind earlier, and may have missed other opportunities to spot it as they where too involved in the fire fight.
Is the above correct, can a unit on a blind move very close to the enemy?
Close Combat and Trenches
Trenches seem to provide little benefit in close combat, just giving +1 dice for cover. This makes CC the much better way of clearing trenches than shooting, which can only cause suppression. We found a battalion attacking in waves of platoons was quite effective as the first company took the casualties, then the second could charge in from 9-10" away and force the defenders out.
It kind of felt OK from expected real world behaviour, but just wanted to check we hadn't missed anything.
Also is is it correct that units with high shock (over 10) will fall back from trenches into the open?
We did discover that loss of the Battalion HQ is bad!
Blinds - correct, as you say the German troops were too focused on the fire fight too notice the reinforcements arriving
Close combat and trenches - correct, to quote a famous corporal. "they don't like it up'em"
Note it is 50% more dice (rounded up) not +1 dice, so a 3 stand company will get 3+1.5 = 5 dice
Spunk 3 or 4 troops are more likely to stand and fight if in trenches (12.2 Willigness to fight)
We allow troops with over 10 shock to withdraw along a trench if it is clearly away from the enemy so the flanks filter off down the trenches the center may end up trying to make a run for it
Thanks Paul
So actively spotting blinds in the open is important - and I suppose if you make the table a bit too small then this means blinds can cover a lot of distance very quickly.
Thanks for the correction on cover - we did play it that way, I've misremembered when typing up. The surprising bit, is there is no further bonus for being in a trench, than being in a wood, for example
Good idea about allowing troops to fall back to the sides, if they can stay in cover. In our game the trenches were small sections not continuous lines.
Another option when in a trench and being attacked is to reserve fire, see 9.10 interdiction fire
This lets you wait until the enemy is at dead close which will double your hits and you will be firing against the troops actually trying to assault
A good suggestion
The defenders had so many targets they where busy shooting when activated