Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => 20th Century => Topic started by: Sunray on 19 August 2020, 11:11:59 PM

Title: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 19 August 2020, 11:11:59 PM
After the "Great Crossing" of the Suez Canal,  Egyptian combat teams ignored the Bar Lev line and fanned out into Sinai.  Their task was to establish firing points for Sagger teams and RPG 7 rockets.

The combat reports from the IDF side says they were transported on buggies.   I am trying to identify the make and model of the buggy.

At some point the Egyptian Army acquired over 1,000 M274 Mules.  This would fit the tactical description, but were they on the inventory in 1973?
Between 1966 and 73 the Soviets supplied almost all Egyptian kit, so was the M274s acquired via a third party?
Or was it a Warsaw Pack Airborne  similar type of buggy - or even a commercial dune buggy adapted by the Egyptians?   
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Scorpio_Rocks on 20 August 2020, 06:08:37 AM
Did they mean the small Gaz-69 "jeep"?

I have never heard of Egyptians using the M274 in 1973 - I would love to know now too!
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 20 August 2020, 06:54:55 AM
Not heard that one.
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 20 August 2020, 09:15:19 AM
Quote from: Scorpio_Rocks on 20 August 2020, 06:08:37 AM
Did they mean the small Gaz-69 "jeep"?

I have never heard of Egyptians using the M274 in 1973 - I would love to know now too!

It was a throwaway line in an Israeli  journal article.  The Egyptians are coy about details around Operation Badr, and until now I accepted the orthodox view that they used 2,200 four wheel wooden carts to transport ALL the kit into the desert . Citation: Gemal Hammad, Military battles on the Egyptian front (Dar al Dhuraq, 2002), p.75.

But when you think about it, that would mean Egyptian regular infantry hand pushing 330 tons of ordinance in wooden carts some 10k across Sinai at night.
These men would also be burdened with special combat vests tooled up with small arms ammo,  2 L of water and 24 hour rats.

This presents a task that would daunt the best of special forces.  Oh and did I mention that on digging in to fire positions they would be tasked with repelling tanks and destroying over 200 of them?

Keep digging.

Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 20 August 2020, 02:24:37 PM
There could be another explanation.  Could the Israeli observer have been talking about the 2,000 odd
small four wheel wooden carts and describe them as "buggies" ? 

Logistically it is possible that 2,200 such carts will carry 330 tons ? Well, yes,  that's 336 pounds per cart.  About the dead weight of two well built men.

The Egyptians are a plebeian army. A physical task like this would not be beyond a squad.

I am still searching for an image of the carts/buggies from Operation Badr, but as the deployment was a one off  covert op, they might simply not exist.
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: sultanbev on 20 August 2020, 03:44:38 PM
Not heard of any country outside the US using M274, certainly not Egypt.
As far as I know the carts where the handrawn ones, capable of carrying 8x Sagger reloads.
Wiki is your friend!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Army#/media/File:Egyptian_soldiers_with_carts.jpg
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 20 August 2020, 05:13:10 PM
Quote from: sultanbev on 20 August 2020, 03:44:38 PM
Not heard of any country outside the US using M274, certainly not Egypt.
As far as I know the carts where the handrawn ones, capable of carrying 8x Sagger reloads.
Wiki is your friend!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Army#/media/File:Egyptian_soldiers_with_carts.jpg

First, many thanks for the image.  Yes,  that sorts the cart/buggy.  Fragile little thing in 1/150.  The firing points were in place as the action turned hot, so would gamers want them ??

And good ol Wikipedia is indeed friendly "Equipment of the Egyptian Army" lists 1,500 M274s in their current inventory. Après Bright Star the Egyptian Army went for all things Uncle Sam.  :)
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 14 July 2021, 12:47:41 PM
Quote from: Sunray on 20 August 2020, 05:13:10 PM
First, many thanks for the image.  Yes,  that sorts the cart/buggy.  Fragile little thing in 1/150.  The firing points were in place as the action turned hot, so would gamers want them ??

And good ol Wikipedia is indeed friendly "Equipment of the Egyptian Army" lists 1,500 M274s in their current inventory. Après Bright Star the Egyptian Army went for all things Uncle Sam.  :)

This thread has been recycled due the the image of an Egyptian shopping trolley. 

Would Yom Kippur gamers want them?
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 14 July 2021, 01:00:53 PM
Doubt they would use shopping trollies, they are bad enough in the local ASDA let alone on a sandy desert.
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 14 July 2021, 01:32:30 PM
They chucked them in the canal when they finished with them.  :) 
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Sunray on 17 July 2021, 10:07:06 PM
Quote from: sultanbev on 20 August 2020, 03:44:38 PM
Not heard of any country outside the US using M274, certainly not Egypt.
As far as I know the carts where the handrawn ones, capable of carrying 8x Sagger reloads.
Wiki is your friend!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Army#/media/File:Egyptian_soldiers_with_carts.jpg

For the attention of Techno 11
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: sultanbev on 02 September 2021, 11:20:26 AM
Just to let you know Red3 have now released a 10mm Egyptian supply cart and dingies for the 1973 war.
Title: Re: Egyptian buggy 1973 war query.
Post by: Jemima Fawr on 22 October 2021, 03:53:15 PM
Re the original question, the Egyptians had various light ATGM carriers:

The most numerous was the 2P26 - a GAZ-69 jeep with four AT-1 'Snapper' on a rearward-firing mount.  The Egyptians had these in service before the Six-Day War and that seems the most likely vehicle fitting the description (albeit with 'Snapper', not 'Sagger').

Then there was the 2P27 - an opened-topped BRDM-1 armoured car mounting three AT-1 'Snapper'.  Then came the 2P32, which was essentially the same vehicle, but with four AT-2 'Swatter' and then came the 9P110, which again was the same vehicle, but mounting six AT-3 'Sagger', this time with an armoured roof over the top.

The Egyptians also acquired the 9P122, which was a BRDM-2 carrying six AT-3 'Sagger', but I'm not sure if they had those in time for the Yom Kippur War.