Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => Ancients to Renaissance (3000BC - 1680) => Topic started by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:02:08 PM

Title: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:02:08 PM
I've been thinking about my next project for some time. The Indian Mutiny met with a lukewarm reception from our regular gaming group.

After much thought and some discussion I've decided, with support from the group, to add some more DBA armies. This avoids adding a new ruleset or even a variant of a ruleset.

So my next project is 10 DBA armies for the Punic Wars :)

I'll do two Roman, Carthaginian and Iberian armies and four others. This will allow for Rome v Carthage Big Battle DBA games (3 armies per side) with a variety of allies for both
It also gives enough allies so they can fight on their own

I've made some, perhaps, educated guesses as to appropriate figures from the Pendraken ranges including the about to be released Greeks :-\

There are a few where I am not sure I have found the best figures, see the DBA lists & comments below :-/

I'm also interested in suggestions for 6 generic 'camps' which will be based on 40x40 bases, probably pack animals or tents...

All feedback appreciated
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:05:55 PM
II/5h Siciliot 448-280BC

General (Sp or Cv)Armoured Hoplites or Thessalian Hvy Cavalry
Cavalry (Cv)Thessalian Hvy Cavalry
Hoplite (Sp)Armoured Hoplites (Bronze & Linen Cuirass)
Psoli (Ps)Psiloi Skirmishers
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:09:26 PM
II/8a Bruttian or Lucanian 420-203BC, II/8c Apulian 420-206BC

General (Cv)Thessalian Hvy Cavalry
Cavalry (Cv)Thessalian Hvy Cavalry
Warriors (3Ax or 4Ax)ARR9 Italian Allies??? / ARL6 Unarmoured, attacking, mixed weapons
Peasants (7Hd)ARL10 Militia???
Javelinmen (Ps)ACR2 Javelinmen, shield / ARL1 Unarmoured, standing, spear
         
Any other suggestions for the Warriors (there are only 2 poses in ARR9) and Peasants?
Perhaps the warriors should look more Greek, unarmoured Hoplites...
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:13:42 PM
II/9a Syracuse in Sicily 410-210BC

General (Cv or Sp)Thessalian Hvy Cavalry or Armoured Hoplites
Hoplites (Sp)Armoured Hoplites (Bronze & Linen Cuirass)
Gauls (4Wb)AGA1 Celtic Warband
Ligurians or Spanish (4Ax)ASP2 Scutarii with sword and spear
Cavalry (3Cv)Thessalian Hvy Cavalry
Bolt-shooter (Art)ADA6 Ballista with crew???
Sikels (3Ax)Peltasts?
Tarentines (LH)Greek Light Cavalry
Psiloi (Ps)Psiloi Skirmiishers
   
Is the Ballista appropriate for a Syracuse bolt-shooter or is the design totally wrong?
Any suggestions for more Greek looking crew for the bolt shooter?
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:16:13 PM
II/11 Gallic 400-50BC

General (LCh or 3Cv or 3/4Wb)AGA6 Heavy cavalry or AGA8 Heavy infantry, AGA3 Foot command
Chariots (LCh) or cavalry (3Cv)AGA6 Heavy cavalry
Warriors (3/4Wb)AGA1 Celtic Warband, AGA8 Heavy infantry, AGA3 Foot command
Skirmishers (Ps)AGA4 Celtic archers

By the Punic wars I assume Cavalry would be more likely than Chariots
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:20:50 PM
II/32a Later Carthaginian 275-202BC

General (Cv)ACR6 Heavy cavalry, ACR14 Hannibal (1)
Cavalry (Cv)ACR6 Heavy cavalry
Elephant (El)ACR9 Elephant, with howdah and crew (2)
Light horse (LH)ACR7 Numidian cavalry???
Numidians (LH)ACR7 Numidian cavalry
Libyan or Poeni spearmen (Sp)ACR3 Citizen Spearmen, shield, ACR1 Foot command
Spanish scutati or Ligurians (4Ax)ASP2 Scutarii with sword and spear
Gauls (4WB/4Ax)AGA1 Celtic Warband
African or Spanish javelinmen (Ps)ACR13 Libyan Spearmen
Slingers (Ps)AGA5 Slingers

Any suggestions for non-Numidian Carthaginian light horse?
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:24:27 PM
II/33 Polybian Roman 275-105BC

General (Cv)ARR10 Roman Cavalry, ARR11 Scipio (1)
Equites (Cv)ARR10 Roman Cavalry
Hastati (4Bd)ARR2 Hastatii, pilum, ARR1 Foot command
Principes (4Bd)ARR3 Principes, pilum/sword, ARR1 Foot command
Allies (3/4Ax)ARR9 Italian Allies
Triarii (Sp)ARR4 Triarii, spear, ARR1 Foot command
Velites (Ps)ARR5 Velites, javelin

Any other suggestions for the Allies? (There are only 2 poses in ARR9)
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 14 December 2019, 08:26:56 PM
II/39a Iberian 240-20BC

General (Cv)ASP6 Heavy cavalry, ASP9 Mounted general (1)
Round shield cavalry (LH)ASP5 Light cavalry
Scutarii (3/4Ax)ASP2 Scutarii with sword and spear, ASP1 Foot command
Caetrati (Ps)ASP3 Caetratus with javelin
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 14 December 2019, 09:18:30 PM
Numidian?
A favourite of mine.

Syracuse, home of that Eureka bloke...
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 December 2019, 02:01:59 AM
A Numidian army can be pretty deadly on an open field. It probably also gets the gold medal for "Most frequently mis-painted army" as well.  ;D :'(
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 15 December 2019, 04:12:12 AM
There don't appear to be that many Numidian figures in the Pendraken range...
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 December 2019, 11:48:21 AM
There are some, and Steve Barber, Magister Militum, Newlines, and Irregular Miniatures all have a few.
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 02:25:54 PM
Et tu, Pauli's?
Elephant? Did someone say Elephant? I think it should be named, "Cersei.
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 15 December 2019, 06:40:58 PM
Quote from: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 02:25:54 PM
Et tu, Pauli's?
That reference is a bit too modern for this project ;)

Quote from: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 02:25:54 PM
Elephant? Did someone say Elephant? I think it should be named, "Cersei.
:-/
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 07:33:14 PM
Quote from: paulr on 15 December 2019, 06:40:58 PM
:-/
Sorry, a Game of Thrones reference from season 8, which is now a popular theme amongst GoT fans. Queen Cersei, she really wanted elephants in her army.

Point taken on anachronistic reference. Let’s go with Elephanti delenda est  :D

A very interesting period - look forward to following your painting diary for same.
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: Orcs on 15 December 2019, 07:51:14 PM
Quote from: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 07:33:14 PM
Sorry, a Game of Thrones reference from season 8, which is now a popular theme amongst GoT fans. Queen Cersei, she really wanted elephants in her army.

Point taken on anachronistic reference. Let's go with Elephanti delenda est  :D

A very interesting period - look forward to following your painting diary for same.

ARRGGHHHHH!!!!!! Flippin spoilers I am about to watch season 6.  Any m,ore of then d_Guy and I will send Nobby to stay with you for a few weeks. :)
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 December 2019, 11:52:47 PM
elephanti delendi sunt
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: d_Guy on 15 December 2019, 11:57:46 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 15 December 2019, 11:52:47 PM
elephanti delendi sunt
My monthly offering of catnip.
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: d_Guy on 16 December 2019, 12:02:02 AM
Quote from: Orcs on 15 December 2019, 07:51:14 PM
ARRGGHHHHH!!!!!! Flippin spoilers I am about to watch season 6.  Any m,ore of then d_Guy and I will send Nobby to stay with you for a few weeks. :)

Who's to say he's not here already! (Enjoy 6, 7, 8 and mum's the word.  :) )
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 16 December 2019, 04:45:38 AM
I'm looking for Pendraken proxies rather than using another manufacturer for some of the troops for 4 of the armies.

II/8a Bruttian or Lucanian 420-203BC and  II/8c Apulian 420-206BC

I need quite a few Warriors (Auxilia) I'm thinking of using ARR9 Italian Allies and/or ARL6 Unarmoured, attacking, mixed weapons. As there are only 2 poses in ARR9.
Perhaps the warriors should look more Greek, unarmoured Hoplites...

ARR9 (https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/41/ARR9.jpg) ARL6 (https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/109/ARL6.jpg)

Would ARL10 Militia be suitable for Peasants (Horde), or are they too well equipped?

ARL10 (https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/113/ARL10.jpg)

And I not sure about either ACR2 Javelinmen, shield / ARL1 Unarmoured, standing, spear for the Javelinmen (Psiloi).

ACR2 (https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/46/ACR2.jpg) ARL1 (https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/104/ARL1.jpg)
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 16 December 2019, 04:50:13 AM
II/9a Syracuse in Sicily 410-210BC

Is the ADA6 Ballista with crew appropriate for a Syracuse bolt-shooter or is the design totally wrong?
Any suggestions for more Greek looking crew for the bolt shooter?
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4859/ADA6.jpg)

II/32a Later Carthaginian 275-202BC
Any suggestions for figures for non-Numidian Carthaginian light horse?

II/33 Polybian Roman 275-105BC
Any other suggestions for the Italian Allies? (There are only 2 poses in ARR9 as mentioned above). Would ARL6 Unarmoured, attacking, mixed weapons or  ARL1 Unarmoured, standing, spear mentioned above be suitable?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts or suggestions

Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: Ithoriel on 16 December 2019, 11:24:43 AM
For peasant hordes I've two suggestions

1. Anglo-Saxon AS5 Levy / peasant foot painted as if in tunic and boots

2. Colonial SC5 Mahdists shaven head with the swordsman converted to wielding a club

The former are a bit too hairy, the latter a bit too bald .... maybe a mix of the two? :)

For Psiloi I'd use GRE10 Javelinmen

GRE9 Light hoplite with spear or the ACR5 Iberian Auxiliaries, spear/sword figure with spear might do for Italians - moreso than Late Romans IMHO.
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 16 December 2019, 07:45:26 PM
Thanks Ithoriel, some useful suggestions

I'm going to wait until Leon releases the new Greeks  :-w :!! :-w

I suspect two of the previewed 'Psiloi Skirmiishers x 3' will be the new equivalent of GRE10
and the previewed 'Unarmoured Hoplites x 2' will be the equivalent of GRE9
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18228.msg272448.html#msg272448 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18228.msg272448.html#msg272448)

One of the things I'm trying avoid is using the same figures in too many armies, ACR5 is a useful option as I'm not using those in the Carthaginian army
I'm using ASP2 Scutarii with sword and spear for the Spanish troops in the Carthaginian army even though they are also in the II/39a Iberian, II/39b Celtiberian armies as they are 'imports' from those armies
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 20 December 2019, 01:53:44 AM
I've pretty much settled on my order for the armies :) :-B @-)

I now need to turn my attention to the camps, each camp will be on a 80x40mm base

There will be one for each army:

I'm open to suggestions

I was wondering about these:

SCN-NML15 Horses, baggage
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4469/SCN-NML15.jpg)

SCN-TNT4 Command tents (x2)
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4294/SCN-TNT4.jpg)

SCN-TNT2 Medieval tents (2)
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/3476/SCN-MED2.jpg)

DAX1 Dark Age civilian group (5)
(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/176/DAX1.JPG)
Maybe remove the latern from the figure on the left and have him leading a pack horse :-\

All suggestions welcome
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: fred. on 20 December 2019, 07:28:53 AM
The various 'farm' animals are good for camps,I  particularly like the geese and cats

There are civilians in the Sudan range and the Mongol range - would be worth a look to see if any fit clothing wise.

(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/1542/SC13.jpg)
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: Ithoriel on 20 December 2019, 10:56:57 AM
MUT24 Indian civilians (30) might provide some suitable figures ... though the guy with the turban might need a head swap :)

(https://pendraken.co.uk/_img/products/4834/MUT24.jpg)
Title: Re: Project 2020 - Punic Wars
Post by: paulr on 30 January 2020, 01:42:33 AM
As I start to do my painting research for the Punic wars project I'm thinking about skin tone and hair colours

I typically use Vallejo 955 Flat Flesh highlighted with 845 Sunny Skin Tone and stereo-typically would use 867 Dark Blue Grey for hair for 'Mediterranean types'

I'm interested in any feedback on 'nationalities' that would vary significantly from this

The 'nationalities' included in the armies I'm doing:

Romans
Carthaginian
   Poeni
   Libyan
Numidians
Iberian / Celtiberian
Siciliot
Gauls
Bruttian, Lucanian, Apulian
Syracuse
Tarentines