Of the roughly 526,000 artillery pieces the Russians fielded in the Great Patriotic War only 47 were B-5 280mm tracked Mortars and they spent the early part of the war in Strategic Reserve because they were so difficult to transport and deploy that the Soviets feared the Germans would overrun them.
Despite which, they're in all three Russian lists.
The 203mm B-4, of which there were an estimated 1011, was used in both direct and indirect fire missions throughout the war. After Kursk, once the Soviets were firmly on the offensive they were often used to demolish bunkers and to flatten urban strong-points from close range.
Captured B-4s were even used by the Germans.
I know it's a personal hobby-horse but could we please include them in an errata somewhere!
Also, Leon, if they're not on a "wants" list somewhere already could I ask that the B-3 (152mm), B-4 (203mm) and B-5 (280mm) be considered for inclusion in your range. The tracked chassis is the same for all three, it's just the gun that's different.
Now, if you'll just give me a moment to get off this soap box, I'd like to say that my initial view of BKCIV is very positive. Well done to all involved but especially to Leon and all the Pendraken crew for biting the bullet and making it happen.
While they may have been relatively rare guns, they are far more common than some of the items already produced for WW2
eg:-
Sturmtiger 18 produced
Brumbar 306 produced
Jagdtiger approx. 70-80 produced
Elephant 60 Produced
Char2c 10 built
T35 approx. 60
So I do think this should go on the requests list, (but after my request for the armoured train) :)
It seems a feature of WW2 collections - the rare items attract the greatest attention.
Over 40 years ago I travelled across London to the 1200 model ship society 's quarterly battle.
About half the floor was occupied by the battle.
Allies Vs Japanese - whose main battle squadron featured 5 Yamato class battleships.
Some time later I developed a fascination for the Kitakami / Oi variant cruisers.
(http://www.navypedia.org/ships/japan/jap_cr51.gif)
Yes that's 40 long-lance torpedo launchers.
"The Br-5 mortar's combat debut occurred in Finland during the Winter War in November 1939.
Four Br-5 mortars were deployed to Finland with the 40th Separate Artillery Battalion, where they were used to destroy heavily armoured bunkers and pillboxes during the battles along the Mannerheim Line. Br-5 mortars fired a total of 414 shells during the Winter War, the extraordinary defences faced can be seen in the assault on Pillbox #0031, which fell only after 116 Br-5 mortar shells as well as 1,043 203 mm B-4 howitzer shells were fired at it from point blank range. Pillbox #0011 continued to resist after a combined 203 mm and 280 mm onslaught of 1,322 shells were fired at it.
Information about the employment of the Br-5 mortar during the Great Patriotic War is scarce; their deployment was heavily classified as it was generally indicative of a major attack. In service they were organised into howitzer battalions of six mortars, each battalion consisting of three batteries each with two mortars. Between 1941 and 1945 the Red Army had eight such battalions, armed with both the Br-5 and the old 280 mm Schneider M1914/15. Nine pieces were lost in the fighting of 1941."
I rarely quote from Wiki but this seems to sum up the 280mm deployment quite well. However, I'd guess that being in a pillbox hit by a 203mm shell at point-blank range was probably bad enough - let alone a 280mm shell :)
With regards to the 203mm tracked mortars and actually a lot of different caliber artillery pieces across a lot of the printed lists, and in certain lists a plethora of assorted AA calibres, due to space limitations in the printed edition we chose to lump some of the calibers together into bands as from a game play perspective there was minimal difference between a 200mm and a 205mm for example.
I'm aware that a number of artillery devotees have expressed desires to include all the calibres in their favoured lists - it's something we can definitely look at for the electronic pdf lists.
Point noted :)
Thanks
Mark
The 280mm just seems an odd choice for inclusion.
The Germans had, amongst other heavy artillery, 60 of their 21 cm Kanone 39, 18 of the 24 cm Haubitze 39 and 7 of the 600mm "Karl-Gerat" mortar but (quite rightly in my opinion) get nothing bigger than 150mm artillery.
The B-4 or even, at a pinch, B-3 would seem more sensible if you want to represent the Russian "bunker buster" guns.
The average Soviet artilleryman spent more time sweeping up rocking-horse sh*t than looking at a B-5 :)
I just printed a couple of B-4 on my 3d Printer.
(https://oi1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/B-4_zpsy1kzhfk8.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/B-4_zpsy1kzhfk8.jpg.html)
Colour me well jealous Wulf. Those look great!
Quote from: Ithoriel on 11 April 2019, 08:13:27 PM
Colour me well jealous Wulf. Those look great!
The brown one is better than the grey one. The tractor suffers a bit from vibration, causing ripples in the sides - I need a sturdier table!
My fascination for this beast began many years ago when the TV series World At War first aired. I remember one scene with one of these on a Berlin street pointing horizontally down the street to a building at the other end about a hundred yards away. Bang. :o
Quote from: Wulf on 11 April 2019, 08:20:54 PM
My fascination for this beast began many years ago when the TV series World At War first aired. I remember one scene with one of these on a Berlin street pointing horizontally down the street to a building at the other end about a hundred yards away. BOOM :o
FTFY ;)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 11 April 2019, 08:13:27 PM
Colour me well jealous Wulf. Those look great!
Me too. On both points.
(https://66.media.tumblr.com/de4efb8cdf7102d50d07233bca7b2b56/tumblr_p4gcipIRBu1r94kvzo1_400.gif)
That looks like the very piece of film, only colourised.
By the way, anyone know if that tractor in my pic is the right one for the B-4?
Looks fine to me Wulf -- though you may need to acquire a couple of dustbin lids :)
(http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//galleries/auxiliary_photo/B_4_2.JPG)
Quote from: Wulf on 11 April 2019, 08:10:57 PM
I just printed a couple of B-4 on my 3d Printer.
(https://oi1380.photobucket.com/albums/ah199/WulfC/B-4_zpsy1kzhfk8.jpg) (https://s1380.photobucket.com/user/WulfC/media/B-4_zpsy1kzhfk8.jpg.html)
They are superb, are you going into production?
Quote from: Orcs on 12 April 2019, 12:40:07 AM
They are superb, are you going into production?
No, purely for personal use. I'm posting to encourage others to give 3d printing a go. The (occasionally) continuing thread of my experience is here: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18333.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,18333.0.html)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 12 April 2019, 12:21:25 AM
Looks fine to me Wulf -- though you may need to acquire a couple of dustbin lids :)
(http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//galleries/auxiliary_photo/B_4_2.JPG)
Oh... that's annoying... Well, initially it'll be emplaced for fire anyway.
(http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//galleries/auxiliary_photo/B_4_2.JPG)
The chap sat on his own - on the gun. Is he just the most disliked member of the crew? The apprentice? The one who has personal hygiene problems?
I'm sure they could have squeeezed him into the big truck somewhere.
Quote from: fsn on 12 April 2019, 07:40:08 AM
(http://armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2//galleries/auxiliary_photo/B_4_2.JPG)
The chap sat on his own - on the gun. Is he just the most disliked member of the crew? The apprentice? The one who has personal hygiene problems?
I'm sure they could have squeeezed him into the big truck somewhere.
He was probably the "weird one ",
possibly probably a wargamer :)
Quote from: fsn on 12 April 2019, 07:40:08 AM
The chap sat on his own - on the gun. Is he just the most disliked member of the crew? The apprentice? The one who has personal hygiene problems?
I'm sure they could have squeeezed him into the big truck somewhere.
Probably the "driver / brakeman"
I understand a proportion of the chassis were fitted with a tractor engine permitting a degree of mechanical handling of the unlimbered piece.
Incidentally in that video clip, one of the pieces rolls back like a smoothbore canon.
I'm glad I'm not the guy who forgot to apply the brakes.
All fun and games until you're sent to the penal battalion.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 12 April 2019, 10:36:44 AM
Incidentally in that video clip, one of the pieces rolls back like a smoothbore canon.
I'm glad I'm not the guy who forgot to apply the brakes.
All fun and games until you're sent to the penal battalion.
Ah! I thought that was deliberate.
Quote from: fsn on 12 April 2019, 11:17:47 AM
Ah! I thought that was deliberate.
Good luck running that back up.
Bricole manufacture has exceeded all quotas of the 5 year plan comrades!!
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 12 April 2019, 10:36:44 AM
Probably the "driver / brakeman"
I understand a proportion of the chassis were fitted with a tractor engine permitting a degree of mechanical handling of the unlimbered piece.
The 3d print does include a box under the trunnions that could house a small engine.
QuoteIncidentally in that video clip, one of the pieces rolls back like a smoothbore canon.
I'm glad I'm not the guy who forgot to apply the brakes.
All fun and games until you're sent to the penal battalion.
It doesn't look like good terrain to rely on the recoil spade...
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 12 April 2019, 05:49:27 PM
Good luck running that back up.
Bricole manufacture has exceeded all quotas of the 5 year plan comrades!!
The B-3, B-4 and B-5 were self powered so could be trundled around for shortish distances over relatively solid ground.
All I will say is if you need a 203mm on table the enemy have already defeated your forward troops and surrender would be a good option 😂
Quote from: mart678 on 16 April 2019, 10:14:20 AM
All I will say is if you need a 203mm on table the enemy have already defeated your forward troops and surrender would be a good option 😂
I like heavy artillery as an objective. Heavy artillery that defends itself spices things up...
On the contrary mart, defensively they make excellent anti-tank guns apparently and, on the attack, rolling one up to a few hundred yards from a bunker or urban strong-point reduces the effectiveness of the structure fairly dramatically :)
At least that seems to have been the Russian experience.
Quote from: Ithoriel on 16 April 2019, 10:48:03 AM
On the contrary mart, defensively they make excellent anti-tank guns apparently and, on the attack, rolling one up to a few hundred yards from a bunker or urban strong-point reduces the effectiveness of the structure fairly dramatically :)
At least that seems to have been the Russian experience.
Yes the Russians had some unique ideas about artillery during WW2.
1. Everything's a potential anti-tank gun.
2. If you can see the enemy, you're not reliant on some bourgeios backsliding revisionist of a forward observer (with their maps, and so called education and .....).
It turns out that for their situation, the ideas were practical and sensible.
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 16 April 2019, 12:54:00 PM
Yes the Russians had some unique ideas about artillery during WW2.
Anti-tank rifles are no longer useful, comrade? Nonsense, just arm an entire battalion with them and concentrate fire on vision blocks, tracks and turret ring! :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 16 April 2019, 01:40:44 PM
Anti-tank rifles are no longer useful, comrade? Nonsense, just arm an entire battalion with them and concentrate fire on vision blocks, tracks and turret ring! :)
And commanders' heads...