Has anyone deconstructed how points values are figured for those that are interested in statting up their own forces for local play or for using existing figures/armies?
Hello and welcome.
There is a formula, but I've yet to crack it!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 24 April 2017, 11:21:09 PM
Hello and welcome.
There is a formula, but I've yet to crack it!
Me neither ... but I'm working on it!
Welcome from me, too, JB.
Cheers - Phil
Yellow
Can't be ar*ed to use points values so I'm no help.
Wotcha by the way.
MickS
Bouncing this thread in the hope of getting an answer to one question about points - do they vary per army i.e. does a unit with the same stats always have the same point value or have they been tweaked depending on the other units/magic in the army list?
Just want to know if I mix and match units from different lists how far off the points might be?
The unit points are calculated to a formula, and are based on probabilities and observations from extensive playtesting.
"...does a unit with the same stats always have the same point value..."
Yes. the intention of the points are to ensure that units and armies are cunstructed in a balanced way for standard 500pt games. The intention is that any army should be able to face any other army with a decent change of success. Skill and a little luck should be the determining factors of your games, not an inherently strong unit.
At least, that was the intention. ;)
I tried finding contact information for Stephen Hardy but couldn't locate it. Maybe he'd be willing to share his formula?
I've had a good hard look at it previously and cannot deduce how (or if) a points formula works in Warband.
It all looks a bit random - the Spells in particular see to defy all logic ... if you can apply logic to spells :o
I believe I've figured out most of it. CP/MP are probably not too far off but I wanted to share my findings so far.
To find the total point value of a unit start by dropping the d6, just look at how many dice you get to roll. Add MT, MV, SH, RA (the first point of RA is free, after the first point count RA as -1), ML, and PR together, multiply that by the MO.
For MT, MV, SH, ML, and PR: if any one of these scores is above 2 you will add 5 points to the total point value for every point above 2.
Example: Wood Elf Wild riders are MT 2, MV 2, SH 1, RA 1, ML 3, PR 2, MO 4
(2+2+1+0+3+2)*4 = 40
ML is 1 point above 2 so we add 5 to the total bringing us to the listed 45 points for the Wild Riders.
Let's test it on some Centaur warriors: MT 2, MV 2, SH 1, RA 1, ML 2, PR 1, MO 4
(2+2+1+0+2+1)*4 = 32
I haven't figured out the point value for all the abilities yet (there are some inconsistencies, some units get Regenerate for 10, some get it for 20 eg). But the Flyer ability consistently costs 20.
Let's check that against some Flying snakes: MT 2, MV 4, SH 0, RA 0, ML 1, PR 1, MO 3
(2+4+0+0+1+1)*3 gets us our base of 24
MV is 4 so that's another 10 total points ((4-2)*5) bringing us to 34
Plus 20 for Flyers brings us to the book listing of 54
:D
*Edit: RA above 2 for whatever reason doesn't incur that +5 per point penalty, this can be verified with Lizardman hunters.
Good work - do you have all the stats in a spreadsheet so you can test your formula?
The two tiered points for some of the core stats must have taken some reverse engineering to work out!
Quote from: fred. on 12 February 2022, 07:59:00 AMGood work - do you have all the stats in a spreadsheet so you can test your formula?
The two tiered points for some of the core stats must have taken some reverse engineering to work out!
Yep! Spreadsheet is currently in progress. I've tested it against a number of different units and I'm pretty sure I have ability scores nailed down but a couple are weird.
Example: The Samurai Ape Kraken can take Regenerate for +20pts but Regenerate is a +10pts skill for literally everything else. This might be an oversight/error though. I've found a few others. Once I have a solid spreadsheet together with these discrepancies noted I'll share it :)
CP cracked:
1d6 CP has a value of 6, this is multiplied as part of the base points for the Command unit.
So calculate the Point value of a Commander as though they were average first. The quality of that Commander then further affects the point total.
A poor Commander has a -1 modifier and subtracts the MO value from the point total
A good Commander has a +1 modifier and adds DOUBLE the MO value to the point total
An exceptional Commander has a +2 modifier and adds QUADRUPLE the MO value to the point total.
Barbarian Chieftain:
CP/MP MT MV SH RA ML PR MO Pts
1d6+2 2d6 1 - - 2d6 1d6 5 80
1d6+1 2d6 1 - - 2d6 1d6 5 70
1d6 2d6 1 - - 2d6 1d6 5 60
1d6-1 2d6 1 - - 2d6 1d6 5 55
This ALMOST works all the time, certainly close enough to homebrew some units. I'm fairly convinced the discrepancies are typos.
Vampire Lord:
CP/MP MT MV SH RA ML PR MO Pts
1d6+2 2d6 2 - - 3d6 3d6 6 138
1d6+1 2d6 2 - - 3d6 3d6 6 127
1d6 2d6 1 - - 2d6 2d6 6 88
1d6-1 2d6 1 - - 2d6 2d6 6 82
Following my calculations the Good quality Vampire Lord should be 128 (a single point off), and the excellent quality should be worth 140 points (only 2 points off).
*Fear is worth +10pts, Undead is worth +0pts.
The only unit that seems to be completely off is the High Elf General.
High Elf General:
CP/MP MT MV SH RA ML PR MO Pts
1d6+2 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 90
1d6+1 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 80
1d6 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 70
The General has Formed like most High Elves and any other Unit that has Formed has it at no cost. But following the calculations (that are 99% consistent against the rest of Command Units) we get the following:
High Elf General:
CP/MP MT MV SH RA ML PR MO Pts
1d6+2 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 108
1d6+1 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 96
1d6 2d6 2 - - 2d6 2d6 6 84
MP is kinda weird. Honestly I don't have a large enough pool of information as all Magic users either have MO of 4 or 6 (and those 6s are ONLY the Undead Liche Unit) but this formula stays within 1-2 points of the listed score so I'll file it under "good enough for homebrew"
It's calculated similar to CP but gets another 20 points on top of it.
Points value for Magic = (6*MO) + 20
A poor caster has a -1 modifier and subtracts the MO value from the point total
A good caster has a +1 modifier and adds DOUBLE the MO value to the point total
An exceptional caster has a +2 modifier and adds QUADRUPLE the MO value to the point total.
Abilities are pretty easy and only has one inconsistency that I caught (regenerate being a 20pt option for the Samurai Ape Kraken when it is 10pt for anything else).
Ability Points
Defensive -5
Fear 10
Fierce 5
Flyers 20
Forest Walkers 5
Formed 0
Hero 10
Hill walkers 5
Impetuous 0
Parting shot 5
Powerful 5
Regenerate 10
Resolute 5
Shieldwall 5
Skirmish 5
Slow shot -5
Swift 5
Undead 0
Water walkers 5
So that's everything I've been able to figure out. I'm going to put together an updated unit list that follows these discoveries so it will mostly be identical with a couple of small adjustments. I'm also working on a spreadsheet for the creation of new units where you can just punch in the desired scores and it will spit out the point value :)
If anyone has any corrections I'd love to hear them!
Small update: anything with a RA of 6 gets an additional +5 pts.