Interesting (well interesting to me at least!) little piece about a marine archaeologist who among other things suggests the Armada was issued with shoddy guns!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26545418
Very interesting, especially the bit about the Spanish guns. I knew the Spanish had difficulty reloading their guns because they had no mechanism for running them in and out, but if the guns themselves were so badly made one wonders if they hit anything at all.
Thanks for that.
ianS
What sort of range did these have ?
Or was the tactic to get as close as possible , and blast away at point blank range ?
Cheers - Phil
Spanish tactics seem to have been to close with the enemy, fire a broadside and then board, relying on their skill and reputation for infantry combat.
The English, not having implemented the 1557 EU directive on Naval Warfare thanks to their 1587 "King of Spain's Beard" opt-out clause, used mostly smaller, lighter, faster and handier ships than the Spanish and unsportingly opened the range so as not to be boarded.
As a result the game went into extra time and the English brought on Fireships from the subs bench.
While the ref wasn't looking the Spanish were fouled most cruelly by Weather.
Final score England 66 - Spain 8*
*Technically an own goal as the English set fire to them
I understand that the Brits tried to design long culverins to be effective ship-smashers at long range, and wasted a lot of time with ineffectual distant shooing before discovering that the same guns had the unexpected side-effect of penetrating very effectively at close range. A bit like finding that 88m anti-aircraft guns were excellent anti-tank weapons, or that you could melt down centurions to make Mexicans.
My understanding, possibly entirely flawed, was that the English stood off to avoid being boarded until Drake plundered the Rosario and discovered how difficult it was for the Spaniards to reload due to gun design and the clutter of supplies on deck. So, at Gravelines, they changed to closing to the point where the Spaniards were tempted into ineffectual long range fire, rapidly closed the range, thereby luring many of the gunners into the ratlines ready for boarding, and then pounded the Spanish ships at close range before sheering off just as the Spaniard reloaded. Rinse, repeat, profit!
The stories are not mutually exclusive.
Ta chaps.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 21 March 2014, 02:14:48 PM
... that you could melt down centurions to make Mexicans.
What? No! No! No! :o
too much wine....and bad sailors
As to range question - the shot would carry for roughly three miles - it's why territorial waters were set at that by Henry 8th.
IanS
Stroll on !........Must have been a particularly lucky (brilliant ?) shot to hit anything at that range, with the ship moving up and down on the swell !
Cheers - Phil
Phil - I didn't say hit any thing - I said carry that far. 300m for the English Culverin would be good, and at that range it would be pushed to penetrate the Spanish hulls.
IanS
That's what I'd assumed Ian. ;) :)
Did the gunners ever try and hit anything at long range, or would that have been considered to be a waste of shot and powder ?
Cheers - Phil
The reason the Armada suffered so little damage as it made it's way up the Channel seems to have been that the English remained at long range (we're talking closer to 300 yards than 3 miles here) to avoid being boarded and as a result did very little damage to the Spanish. The English were very short of powder and shot (government cut backs - too much to hope the current government is remembering this? =) ) and one of the reasons Drake seems to have given for slinking off in the middle of the night to loot the Rosario and San Salvador was that he was replenishing his stocks (no doubt he had to move the gold, silver and jewels on to his own ship so they could get at the ammo ;) I've no idea if the English were forced to reduce their firing rate to conserve stocks. The Spanish seem to have still had large amounts of ammunition on board as the made the run round the North of Scotland so presumably their rate of fire was indeed pretty slow.
For the record, Rosario and San Salvador seem to have simply collided rather than being the victims of English gunnery.
Once they'd broken up the Spanish fleet formation the English were more willing to close and as I said before seem to have tempted the Spaniards to fire at long range so they could close and do some damage while the Spaniards reloaded.
So, yes both fleets tried long range fire but with little or no success.
I think the Spanish commander was trying to save ammo as the guns were to be unloaded when they landed in England to be used on the land...I could have dreamt this info though
I might also have been dreaming, but I once heard the Spanish managed three shots an hour compared to the British twelve (which was considered high)!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 22 March 2014, 09:14:23 AM
I might also have been dreaming, but I once heard the Spanish managed three shots an hour compared to the British twelve (which was considered high)!
I remember the same statistics though I couldn't tell you where they came from.
However, George Gush "Renaissance Warfare" has the following to say about land based artillery:
Part 4: The Artillery : Effectiveness
Accuracy was very limited over about 300 yards (ΒΌ inch windage was allowed between shot and bore) and rates of fire were not high, probably because guns were loaded with shovelfuls of loose powder from a barrel (usually closed with a leather cover with a drawstring). Cartridges, though known, were not apparently used much until the advent of Gustavus's regimental guns, which, using them, achieved rates of fire of up to three rounds a minute - faster than a musket. William Eldred, in The Gunners' Glasse (1646) gave eight rounds per hour as the average, though other evidence seems to show that quite large 17th Century guns such as culverins could manage ten rounds an hour; 'Drakes' (guns under 5 pounders) of the same period achieved 15 rph. For safely, a gun was supposed to fire only a limited number of shots per day, or at least before having a cooling-down period (for example, a 20 pounder culverin of Henry VIII was limited to 36 rounds a day).
I would imagine naval guns would be slower to fire
The 60pr guns mounted on Venetian galleys of the period were effective up to 1,000 yards. However, at that range the margin of error was 100 yards each side of the target!
I dont think the Spanish commanders themselves thought that the Armada would succeed..Didnt Medina write several letters to the king trying to get himself out of the command?
Yes he did, but he was a land commander, which formed the basis of his protests.
IanS
I think the division between admirals and generals was less cut and dried in those days but anyone with any military background at all, who saw the plans, must have realised it was a disaster in the making.
A Spanish fleet, outnumbered four to three (around 150 ships to the English 200) had to sail through the Channel, within sight of the English, contact the Duke of Parma's army with only a rough idea of where it was and escort it's wallowing barges through the English Fleet to land on a hostile shore and move on London. Which relied on the Duke of Parma sourcing enough barges for the roughly 16,000 men he had left of the 30,000 he'd started out with and getting those barges past the Dutch fly-boats despite the flyboats operating in the waters and in the manner they were designed for and the barges having to use waters the Spanish navy couldn't enter. Even with an army of only slightly more than half the number intended, Parma was still a week or more away from having the required barges by his best estimate when the fleet arrived.
Once the English "hellburners" were sighted, the bigger ships that might have survived the anticipated fire and explosions stayed put but the lighter ships ran for it, not surprisingly. Faced with the choice of leaving the smaller stuff to be sunk or setting out after them the big stuff left shelter, allowing the English and the weather to drive them into the disastrous trip around North Britain.
Some of the Spanish ships lost at Gravelines seem to have found themselves fought over by the English, the Dutch and the French, all determined to acquire their part of the spoils of war! What it must be to have friends :)
If Phillip of Spain hadn't insisted on trying to micromanage a campaign to be fought hundreds miles away months in the future the Armada might have done better. If Medina-Sidonia had treated those orders as suggestions rather than the instructions they actually were it might have been different too. There was a brief possibility that Medina Sidonia could have landed troops in the Solent area which would make a fascinating "what-if" scenario for gaming.
Don't forget a major debilitating factor on the Armada's morale was the 'Singeing of The King of Spain's Beard' raid by Drake and co the previous year. It may not have been a massive attack, but in the process several hundred thousand barrels were torched.
This meant the Armarda's food and water was stored in unseasoned barrels and went rotten before they had even set off.
Not good for a fleet that averaged 20miles per day!!!
Quote from: Techno on 21 March 2014, 01:29:23 PM
What sort of range did these have ?
Or was the tactic to get as close as possible , and blast away at point blank range ?
Cheers - Phil
Was this not the time to wreck sails and masts and then fight it out in a boarding action?
Not really. The primary weapon of the Spanish ships was their soldiers, but they didn't carry the correct weapons to smash the rigging. The English were definitely aiming for hulling shots.
IanS
The Spanish ships carried much larger crews and their tactic was to close and board. The Spanish ships were also much taller out of the water with fore and aft castles so that fire could be directed on to the decks of the British ships with out much chance of effective return fire. The main British tactic was to prevent the Spanish fleet making land fall any where and simply harry them along the coast without allowing themselves to be cornered, thus they hung astern of the Spanish and only really attempted to attack the slower ships. The damage to the Spanish ships themselves was mainly to rudder chains and rigging but this constant weakening led to the problems they had as the rounded the British Isles in the stormy weather later.
Buggar
Had to go look at the Perfect Captain website again...all enthused about the period
Quote from: Fenton on 23 March 2014, 09:52:42 AM
Buggar
Had to go look at the Perfect Captain website again...all enthused about the period
And that's a problem how? :D :D :D
Well its not really...just need to buy a new printer first