Here is a sample of the brand new Austrian gun-team for 1866. This one's painted as horse-artillery. If you want yourshttp://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/DSCN1029.jpg as foot artillery you will have to file the plumes off the shakos. - although I did hear a rumour that Leon was going to do both variants.
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/DSCN1032.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/DSCN1031.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/DSCN1030.jpg)
(http://i1220.photobucket.com/albums/dd448/Hertsblue/DSCN1029.jpg)
Superb work sir, do I detect the hand of Phil?
8)
Might have been me......Who wants to know ? ;)
Like those lots Ray !!
Cheers - Phil.
They do look impressive!
Nicely done Ray 8)
Lovely paint job.
Sorry to resurrect this thread guys, but where does this idea come from that the plume is a horse artillery only thing? I cannot recall seeing it in any of my sources.
Mollinary
According to my "Fighting Troops of the Austro-Hungarian Army 1968-1914", by James Lucas, "the Horse Artillery was the only branch of the Artillery to wear the horse-hair plume on active service."
Trumpeters wore red, others black.
Does that help?
Sorry 1868, not 1968.
Yes, that's where I got it too. I'm no relation to the author either.
Ray Lucas.
Hmm vvvery interesting! 1868? Many thanks, had not come across that before. I think I shall go scurrying to my Teuber and Ottenfeldt.
Mollinary
Some of you may have seen the thread I started on this on TMP. An interesting alternate variant has emerged, from Rudi the German, one which I confess I find more plausible. A statement like "only the horse Artillery wore the shako with plume on campaign" does not appear to mean that only the HA wore the plume, but that only the HA wore the shako! The FA wore the rather unflattering field cap. If this is indeed the meaning of the regulation, then no-one would wear a shako without a plume. For foot artillery to wear the shako at all would be a breach of regulations, something which is by no means impossible. Hmm, will see if the thread turns up anything more.
Mollinary
The actual wording of the quote from Lucas's book (which occurs in a caption to a drawing of horse artillery on the move) reads "The horse artillery was the only branch of the Artillery to wear the horse-hair plume on active service". Admittedly it is a secondary source, and there is no way of knowing what the original source was, but in no illustration of the various actions I've seen do the Austrian artillery wear anything but the kepi.
I hear you HB, but you know what the illustrations are like for this period! Curiously I have been unable to find any illustrations, engravings, paintings or photographs which show Austrian artillerymen wearing anything other than the shako with plume. No field cap, no shako without plume. Anyway, it merits further investigation, and I am going to try and get someone with a better grasp of German than me to translate the relevant section from Teuber and Ottenfeld. In the meantime , let us keep looking for sources! I am off to look out all the Czech booklets produced for the battle sites, and see if there is anything more there in the way of contemporary photographs.
Best,
Mollinary
Part of the problem here may be that the Austrian gunners in 1866 who were much the favourite subjects for artists were the men of Hauptmann von der Gröben's Kavallerie Batterie Nr.7 - the so-called "Battery of the Dead." As its name suggests, this was indeed a horse artillery unit. See http://www.erstes-garderegiment.de/Bilder/Bild%2014.htm for various representations of these unfortunates being overrun by the Prussian Guard at Chlum.
Vitrier
Excellent stuff. Got to get me some of those.
Horse artillery the world over has a certain panache which they cultivate, each and every difference, sartorial or otherwise, which distinguishes the dashing gallopers from their plodding cousins is seized upon and cultivated, it might simply have been that the horse gunners affected the plume in the field as well as on parade for that reason, show.
Quote from: cameronian on 12 March 2014, 11:05:16 AM
Horse artillery the world over has a certain panache which they cultivate, each and every difference, sartorial or otherwise, which distinguishes the dashing gallopers from their plodding cousins is seized upon and cultivated, it might simply have been that the horse gunners affected the plume in the field as well as on parade for that reason, show.
Absolutely.
John Dz, Holdfast, has kindly had a look at the relevant section in Teuber and Ottenfeld's history of the Austrian Army up to 1867. His German is much better than mine, but I don't think this source solves our problem. It clearly identifies the original introduction of the new plumed shake for officers only. It then describes the shako cover, how it was attached around the plume, and mentions that the shako was worn in its cover, apart from on parades. It then describes the later regulations which modify the shako, and extend its use to other ranks in the Field artillery, and officers in the technical artillery. It makes no mention of removal of the plume, or the shako, in the field. More interestingly, it mentions no distinction between the foot and horse artillery. So, I think I would go for just the figure with the plume, for all my gunners. Of course, nothing is definitive so far, so await with interest anyone else's discoveries.
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 21 March 2014, 06:52:43 PM
John Dz, Holdfast, has kindly had a look at the relevant section in Teuber and Ottenfeld's history of the Austrian Army up to 1867. His German is much better than mine, but I don't think this source solves our problem. It clearly identifies the original introduction of the new plumed shake for officers only. It then describes the shako cover, how it was attached around the plume, and mentions that the shako was worn in its cover, apart from on parades. It then describes the later regulations which modify the shako, and extend its use to other ranks in the Field artillery, and officers in the technical artillery. It makes no mention of removal of the plume, or the shako, in the field. More interestingly, it mentions no distinction between the foot and horse artillery. So, I think I would go for just the figure with the plume, for all my gunners. Of course, nothing is definitive so far, so await with interest anyone else's discoveries.
Thanks for the info!
8)
Quote from: mollinary on 21 March 2014, 06:52:43 PM
John Dz, Holdfast, has kindly had a look at the relevant section in Teuber and Ottenfeld's history of the Austrian Army up to 1867. His German is much better than mine, but I don't think this source solves our problem. It clearly identifies the original introduction of the new plumed shake for officers only. It then describes the shako cover, how it was attached around the plume, and mentions that the shako was worn in its cover, apart from on parades. It then describes the later regulations which modify the shako, and extend its use to other ranks in the Field artillery, and officers in the technical artillery. It makes no mention of removal of the plume, or the shako, in the field. More interestingly, it mentions no distinction between the foot and horse artillery. So, I think I would go for just the figure with the plume, for all my gunners. Of course, nothing is definitive so far, so await with interest anyone else's discoveries.
Mollinary
I think, when all's said and done, that the presence or not of a plume on a 10mm figure is something only wargamers would argue over. I'm with Molliary.
My head hurts! :'(
Well, here we go with thread necromancy again! Just back from a most enjoyable trip to Bohemia touring the battlefields, and managed to have a chat on this subject with a Czech expert. His name is Mr Grof, and he is responsible for the upkeep of all the monuments in the Trautenau area. He has also set up an impressive museum concentrating on the artillery during this war in St John's chapel on the battlefield. Artillery is his specialism, and he has original copies of all the regulations of this period. He is even supervising the construction of full scale replicas of Austrian rifled fortress artillery for the museum at the fortress of Josefstadt. The statement that the foot artillery did not wear the plume in 1866 he believes originates in a book on the Austrian Artillery written by the director of the Austrian Army History Museum in Vienna. He was less than complimentary about the accuracy of various aspects of the text! He was quite firm that the Foot Artillery did wear the plume on campaign in 1866, and that the use of the small detachable rainproof cover was also widespread. I do not think I am going to find a better source, so for me, my foot artillery crews keep their plumes!
Mollinary
Remember that there are three centuries of bad blood between the Czechs and the Austrians, of course.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 31 July 2014, 11:04:06 AM
Remember that there are three centuries of bad blood between the Czechs and the Austrians, of course.
Maybe so, but it would hardly be forwarded by a respected authority suggesting that foot gunners wore their plumes on campaign! :-\ - you wouldn't have shaved yours off by any chance, would you, FK? :D ;)
Mollinary
Must say I'd believe Grof on this; don't suppose he mentioned the pamphlet I've been trying to get him to write ? How was the trip, did you unearth anything new ?
Phew! So we have avoided that massive clanger - more by luck than judgement. Better tell Leon, though. He was about to create two separate masters. :o
Quote from: Hertsblue on 31 July 2014, 06:14:59 PM
Phew! So we have avoided that massive clanger - more by luck than judgement. Better tell Leon, though. He was about to create two separate masters. :o
Bit late now, we've already moulded both sets... :D
Never mind, anyone need some 'generic' Austrian-ish limber riders without any plumes... :-\
Actually, they would make perfect members of the support train, as outriders for pulling supply wagons. Good job you didn't model the gun crew without them as well! :D. Of course, the question which might be asked by the ungenerous, is when will we get the limber sitter figures WITH the plume! :-\ ;)
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 31 July 2014, 06:31:57 PM
Of course, the question which might be asked by the ungenerous, is when will we get the limber sitter figures WITH the plume! :-\ ;)
:-$
All this raises the question of when the shako plume was introduced. I don't think I have ever seen a representation of Austrian gunners in 1859 wearing the shako plume. For example, Bruce Weigle's 1859 rules show on page 53 a Fritz Neumann illustration of Austrian artillery in action at San Martino. There is not a plume to be seen.
Quote from: vitrier on 01 August 2014, 01:25:47 PM
All this raises the question of when the shako plume was introduced. I don't think I have ever seen a representation of Austrian gunners in 1859 wearing the shako plume. For example, Bruce Weigle's 1859 rules show on page 53 a Fritz Neumann illustration of Austrian artillery in action at San Martino. There is not a plume to be seen.
This question is much easier to answer, as it is contained in the Teuber and Ottenfled History of the Army 1700-1867. For officers, the plume was introduced by an order of 18 September 1860. For other ranks the new shako, with the plume, was introduced by an order of 3 July 1862.
Sorted!
Mollinary
La plume de ma tante est sur le shako de ma l'oncle. Right then, lets wait for the OCD brigade to tell us that plume means pen in French.
Sorted indeed! I am most grateful.
Vitrier
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 01 August 2014, 01:49:19 PM
La plume de ma tante est sur le shako de ma l'oncle. Right then, lets wait for the OCD brigade to tell us that plume means pen in French.
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 01 August 2014, 01:49:19 PM
La plume de ma tante est sur le shako de ma l'oncle. Right then, lets wait for the OCD brigade to tell us that plume means pen in French.
If only we had a French FK (chat ferocieuse? :-\) I am sure he/she would have pointed out that it should be "mon oncle" , as Molesworth might have said " as any fule kno!" :D :D
Mollinary
B*****ks! Not the OCD brigade but the French teacher. Honest sir, me uncle's a tranny.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 02 August 2014, 01:48:23 PM
B*****ks! Not the OCD brigade but the French teacher. Honest sir, me uncle's a tranny.
So she is, in fact your Auntie? In which case she would be "ma tante"? ;D :D ;)
Mollinary
PS in retrospect, should our French FK not have been "chat feroce""? Fraps L'Enfer de moi,
M
FK much disturbed people take his name in vane.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 03 August 2014, 12:47:33 AM
FK much disturbed people take his name in vane.
Clearly much disturbed!
That wot I sa. Molesworth dear memory for other peple here too, you kno.
Shome mishtake, shoorly - Hic !
Phil - stop taking the pills.....
IanS
:P ;) ;D