Hi All,
In the spirit of fostering debate, I would like to pose the possibility of a future (perhaps far ?) application of a rapidly developing technology: 3D Printing.
In regards to this, I have seen how this technology- printing objects by applying layer upon layer of very fine material (plastic, metal-even food ingredients !) to build-up objects in 3D-is becoming more widespread and accessible to the everyday user i.e. smaller and cheaper machines that could be placed in the home.
It's very easy to find examples of how this process has been used to produce little toy models, amongst more complex tools, so what about what its application into the wargames Hobby ? Is it likely that we could see a world where these machines find their way into the home, as commonly as the t.v and computer has done before them. And, if so, would the wargamer dispense with the process of ordering figures online, to be despatched as physical items to their home ?
Instead, might the enthusiast simply download the relevant files for the figure they require from the manufacturer and then simply stand back to watch their printer produce them in from of their eyes (of course, assuming the requirement to obtain the basic metal/plastic raw materials from a supplier ); then, (and this is a step I've already seen being done ), the printer could add the appropriate colours to the figure, layer by layer and in the exact places. Would this result in the actual painting of figures being the preserve of a small band of afficiandoes ? Certainly it would by-pass the postal restrictions on paint !
By no means am I claiming that the above suggestions will happen, but what do others think ? Do these ideas seem completely unrealistic or in 10, 20 years' time, will I be able to print out armies and have them painted by machine in a matter of just days ? And, if this is in any way possible, would it be a good thing ? What might be lost in the hobby by the potential application of this technology ?
Over to you....
Regards to all,
Tim
Hi Tim,
I've been a designer and modelmaker for 27 years now for my sins and I'll give you my following thoughts on the subject of 3D printing:
- The technology is still very expensive, certainly to get the resolution required for wargames models.
- A lot of the machines that can print at a fine enough level of detail for us wargamers are incredibly unreliable. We had one machine that only built successfully 30% of the time!
- The machines that are reliable cannot print at the resolution I would want as a wargamer.
- The materials used are very expensive.
- The materials used do not have durability of injection moulded parts.
- The materials used require a lot of post processing, requiring additional equipment, chemicals etc.
- You need a good knowledge of computing and data handling to manage the raw data coming in. (We routinely make parts for some of the 28mm boys in the industry and more often than not have to send the data back to them to fix it so that the machine can build said parts).
- Given the above the unit price is prohibitely expensive for one off items.
- For the past 15 yeara or so the manufacturers of the machines have been plying the press with stories of us all having machines in our hourses etc in a few years time. The 'Today' programme on Radio 4 ran such a piece over the Xmas period. Basically these articels are trotted out at regular intervals to keep the share prices up etc. An industry analyst wrote a telling piece on his Blog blowing wide open the myth of 3D printing and its relevance to the home user, talk less of 'prefessionals' such as myself.
So there you have it, one view from inside the industry. Hopefully some of you will find this interesting and informative. Naturally other points of view welcomed...
I am reminded of the great Arthur C. Clarke. One of Clarke's laws ran "When a distinguished but elderly scientist says that something is possible, he is probably right. When he says that something is impossible, he is almost certainly wrong."
The idea of printing the terrain for actual battlefields intrigues me.
I suspect a great many wargamers would be shocked at how flat and bare their terrain is compared to real life!
It will come but not in the next 10 years. Having experience with the design (and no it is NOT finished when you are - then you redesign according to printer specs) and process I argue the latter needs severe improvements.
Not to mention that current home printers have neither the quality not the price (1,500 GBP+) to make this a common sight.
The impact on IP (particularly that there is 3D Cameras that plug into software to make a usable 3D model!) cannot even be imagined.
3D printing has been around for a while now, and doesn't seem to have advanced much in terms of affordable machines at a worthwhile resolution. There has been much talk on forums about its use in modelling, not just wargaming, but other genres as well, especially railway modelling. The problem is still one of the resolution being nowhere near high enough with out paying huge money.
From what I've seen/read, the most successful use of the technology to far has been producing 'master models', primarily of vehicles, which can then be used to make moulds for production in either resin or metal. These 'masters' still need a lot of preperation to bring them to a standard acceptable to modellers and gamers.
The potential of the technology is huge for modellers, especially if you have skills in 3D cad, but in my opinion, it will be a long time before the machines are there to turn it into a reality.
Cheers,
Kev
We keep an eye on it, but as others have said above, it's going to be a long time before the costs involved come down to a level where it's viable for us as a business. Currently just the 3D drawing alone would set us back more than a sculptor would charge us, and that's before we've even looked at the production costs of either a one-off master or multiples for retail. There is a 15mm company using 3D prints for their masters, but I know it takes them at least a day or two to clean up the prints before they are good enough to go into a master mould.
Must be cheaper to keep Techno chained to the sculpting table and feed him the occasional pot noodle
Wot? A WHOLE pot noodle!!?? :P
Quote from: Ithoriel on 04 January 2014, 06:11:38 PM
Wot? A WHOLE pot noodle!!?? :P
I didnt say how long each one had to last ;)
Cheaper if you use own brand pots...
I think its an amazing technology. Sure its in its infancy, but it of course will get better and will eventually meet the specific requirements of wargamers.
Will we ever see it as ubiquitous, cheap, reliable technology in our homes? Nope. OR rather i don't think so.
Imagine this: you have a machine in your utility room that will make any object or machine you require, to an exceptional quality. This basically makes obsolete almost every manufacturing business supplying the domestic market.
You really think the capitalist system will allow this? I suspect it will remain niche, and if it ever looks like it might become commonly available it'll go the way of electric cars, and other superior technological developments - bought up and buried by the multinationals who will lose out to it.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 04 January 2014, 06:59:44 PM
Cheaper if you use own brand pots...
Would that reduce the price of the figures?
Quote from: Fenton on 04 January 2014, 05:54:28 PM
Must be cheaper to keep Techno chained to the sculpting table and feed him the occasional pot noodle
For me.....The weird thing about pot noodles is......
Every couple of years or so I get an absolute, and totally irrational craving to eat one.....
So I buy one....eat about the first half inch or so of the 'food'.....and then remember why I don't buy them more often. :-& :-& :-&
Going back to the subject.....
I've seen some
very nice 'straight line' models done from really high quality printers......But the price has been fairly astronomical for the master.
Most firms would have to be sure they'd sell hundreds upon
hundreds to get their money back.......Or charge a much higher price per model.
Cheers - Phil.
I am rather skeptical about 3d printing.
They may well have some use in the design process, I seriously doubt that personal printers will be used in the way suggested. One only has to look at way the market in ink printing has developed to see the pitfall, namely the exorbitant price of the ink. I can't remember the last time I used my printer.
And while at the moment those promoting the technology are able to get generally favourable stories into the media - if one ignores the bogus story about the printed gun - if the technology takes off, and becomes a threat to the big business interests who pay the bills for the media through advertising, it will not be long before scary stories about health issues start appearing.
There is also something rather odd about the discussion of 3d printing with regard to wargaming. Forums relating to the hobby are packed with rants about price, and there is an accepted implications that cheap is good. Yet on this subject the law of magic appears to kick in. I went to a site that prints out designs to have a look at the things on offer and was rather shocked that a 1/300th, decently designed, tank was on sale at £18 plus postage.
I must be getting old, because I would rather the manufacturer did the manufacturing - rather like when I fancy a bacon sandwich I am happy to pay the farmer, the abbatoir and the shop to deal with the pig - and each of them make a enough to feed themselves and their families. So much of the brave new world offered by 3d printing proponents appears concerned with cutting out the supply chain, and focusing the profit entirely with the designer - and the company selling you the refill cartridges for the printer. Which is good for them, but rather questionable to the wider society - rather like the way Supermarkets have draoned the high street of all but pound/charity shops, and coffee pedlars.
Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here....(probably :-[)
£18 for a single '6mm scale' tank ?.....I thought those 'ran out'....at something between 50p and £1-50.
Or are we talking about a 'master' that a different firm can use to produce multiples and sell themselves ?
(£18 wouldn't be a bad price at that scale if so.....Like I said above, I've seen some other vehicles produced by high quality printers.....Very high price...But those were being produced as 'masters' for a secondary firm to put into production themselves.)
Can't see many (any?) folk being prepared to fork out that sort of money otherwise !.....
Cheers - Phil
Quote£18 for a single '6mm scale' tank ?.....I thought those 'ran out'....at something between 50p and £1-50.
I'm not sure what Shapeways charge for their basic resin and service, but we have a minimum charge for parts mainly due to the labour involved. I'll give you an idea of the post build processes involded with two different RP systems:
Objet:
- Remove parts from platform with spatula.
- Physcially remove as much of the 'wax' support by hand as is possible, but without damaging the part.
- Put part into his pressure jet washer to blast of remaining wax.
- Put part into Sodium Hydroxide (I think) to dissolve any lingering wax. Leave a long as possible, typically 8 hours or more.
- Repeat jet wash process.
- Check part and physically remove ultra-fine layer of wax still left on part, which chemical solution fails to remove.
- Sandblast.
- Prime with paint.
- Sand off build lines etc.
- Part now ready for required finishes to be applied.
Projet:
- Put build platform in fridge.
- When cold enough, a gentle knock removes parts from platform.
- Allow parts to come up to room temperature.
- Put part in 70 degree over to melt off wax support. (If parts put in when cold, fracture lines may appear on part).
- When wax melted off, put part on tissue to absorb as much remaining wax as possible.
- Put part in vegetable oil bath in ultra-sonic cleaner for 15 minutes.
- Remove part and put on tissue and allow to cool.
- Remove excess oil by hand.
- Put part into Gunk to degrease. Physcially brush part in Gunk to aid oil removal.
- Wash part under a tap with tepid water.
- Put onto tissue to dry.
- Sandblast part to aid paint adhesion and to check for residue wax.
- Sand surfaces to remove build lines.
- Part now ready for required paint finishes to be applied.
As you can see, both are incredibly labour intensive in terms of just getting a part ready for painting.
Another thing to note is that the Projet machine needs to be used everyday in an ideal situation to stop the print heads drying out, just the same as a home printer. And the cartidges are not cheap either. Then there is the maintenance costs to factor in.
So hopefully the above will give you an idea of why those off us 'in the know' realise that given the current state of affairs, affordable and reliabe 3D printing at home is a long, long way off. The only way I've seen it used effectively is by the military in Afghanistan and Iraq where they set up printers in a couple of shipping containers to build replacement parts of on the spot conversions quickly, compared to shipping parts in from the UK or America. Buth then the Military have money to burn, given that a AA battery costs circa £20 to get to Afghanistan...
Quote from: Steve J on 05 January 2014, 11:20:28 AM
given that a AA battery costs circa £20 to get to Afghanistan...
What's this AA battery armed with - pea shooters? :-\
QuoteWhat's this AA battery armed with - pea shooters?
We designed and manufactured a comms system (on behalf of Thales) for soldiers in the field that is worn whilst on patrol. To gaurantee the unit will work whilst on patrol, the batteries are shipped out from the UK, rather than being bought in theatre (gaurantee of supply, not fakes etc). During the manufacture process we found out by chance (from Thales) the cost of shipping one battery to Afghanistan. Needless to say we were somewhat suprised. Each unit uses 4 x AA batteries per unit per patrol on average, so imagine the cost per Company per month when in theatre...
Well....It's certainly very labour intensive Steve !!
Good info....Thanks for that
Can't see it taking off as home based, for reproducing vehicles or figures for decades....If ever.
Definitely can see the advantages of getting really spiffy 'bits' made.....as long as the originating firm is happy for a secondary manufacturer to mould/cast them up for use as parts in their own figures/vehicles.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Techno on 05 January 2014, 09:23:11 AM
Am I getting the wrong end of the stick here....(probably :-[)
£18 for a single '6mm scale' tank ?.....I thought those 'ran out'....at something between 50p and £1-50.
Or are we talking about a 'master' that a different firm can use to produce multiples and sell themselves ?
(£18 wouldn't be a bad price at that scale if so.....Like I said above, I've seen some other vehicles produced by high quality printers.....Very high price...But those were being produced as 'masters' for a secondary firm to put into production themselves.)
Can't see many (any?) folk being prepared to fork out that sort of money otherwise !.....
Cheers - Phil
It was for a single tank. There were cheaper ones @£5 or £6.
I doubt they were for use as masters as the site was print on demand, using the same model as T shirt companies; you get the design you want, and then get paid a royalty on sales of that design.
Anyone recognises this figure here? ;)
(http://s1.directupload.net/images/140113/temp/4eh9s8lm.jpg) (http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3501/4eh9s8lm_jpg.htm)
Tried to scan a 10mm fig at work (I still occasionally help out at the dental laboratory of my parents)...normally this programe is used to sculpt teeth, but this worked perfectly fine. Just a little bit expensive to cut out a single 10mm fig of a zirconium bloc ;D
Nevertheless, I can clearly see the potential of 3D techniques in the miniature hobby.
For me it's a big nono.
I have been looking at various shapeways models recently and they are bloody expensive. Quality seems to be inconsistent too.
And even if the price was right and the quality grade A, it stilll ain't metal! I just like my metal.
I'm probably too conservative for these kind of things but i like it that way.
Also:
(http://gallery.myff.org/gallery/1678464/original-3d-printer_o_1621339.jpg)
I liked the item that was on the news recently that was going on about 3D printing in chocolate.
Just think....If you take out an opponents figure in a game...You get to eat it.
Instead of using paint, you could use food dyes to keep the models edible.
Only problem I can see is that you'd have to do all the gaming in a cold room so the figures didn't melt. ;)
Cheers - Mr Silly.
Perhaps a shell like Smarties?
You could always eat the enemy soldiers you have killed which would add something to the game, though if my opponent had all of his made of coffee cremes' I wouldnt try and win
Quote from: Fenton on 13 January 2014, 03:19:57 PM
You could always eat the enemy soldiers you have killed which would add something to the game, though if my opponent had all of his made of coffee cremes' I wouldnt try and win
You could always smoke them :P
Not Cafe Creme's ..Coffee Creme's
Quote from: Luddite on 04 January 2014, 07:09:25 PM
You really think the capitalist system will allow this? I suspect it will remain niche, and if it ever looks like it might become commonly available it'll go the way of electric cars, and other superior technological developments - bought up and buried by the multinationals who will lose out to it.
I think your right there Luddite, As soon as the resolution and price gets to a point where its viable that technology will be burried alongside other technology we know about - Unladerable tights/ Stockings , everlasting lightbulbs etc.
I wish to point out before any of you lot make comments - I have no interest in Stockings or tights, other than looking at (or possibly removing) tham from a female form. And actually laddered ones can be quite alluring ;)
As to pre-painted; I'd still paint em.
Wouldn't buy pre-painted as that's a HUGE part of the hobby for me ;)
What's the potential for scanning a larger figure and reducing it to the one true scale? It could then be used as a master for making a mould, and you'd have metal figures again.
Basically cost FK.
Costs much more to sculpt a larger figure....Then you've got the added outlay of scanning an cutting your new master. (That won't be cheap at all !).
If you're thinking of scanning an existing figure from another manufacturer.......Copyright....Or payment to them to get round that.
All adds up I'm afraid....And not by little amounts.
It all just adds extra 'stages' in the process, that someone's going to want paying for...in time.....or money.
Can't see it being viable for a long time yet.
Cheers - Phil.
It would save your poor old eyes though Phil :P
Strike two !! :P
Cheers - Phil.
This is an interesting video on to the topic.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUndy0j8GX0
It relates to a thread on dakka http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/548621.page about the antics of an alleged serial con artist.
There are a number of things of interest, notably the price. The official Forgeworld model is @£500, to have the 'fan made' model printed would apparently be 3 or 4 times that amount (or taking a month and a half to print the components at home - which is difficult to believe, given that the wording of the offer was that people would have to hurry as the plans may have to be returned at any moment), and yet the hook of the scam was offering the printed model for @£250. Which in a way speaks volumes about people's false expectations of the current state of 3d printing.
If you could get a 3D scanner big enough, you could just wheel a Panzer IV into a warehouse, run the scanner over it, and then you could print it in any scale you wanted! So all we need is a massive scanner, a working Pz IV in Middlesbrough, someone who knows how to use the various gizmo's... (and a man with a goat?!)
Quote from: Leon on 15 January 2014, 06:55:58 PM
If you could get a 3D scanner big enough, you could just wheel a Panzer IV into a warehouse, run the scanner over it, and then you could print it in any scale you wanted! So all we need is a massive scanner, a working Pz IV in Middlesbrough, someone who knows how to use the various gizmo's... (and a man with a goat?!)
Or... or... or.... you could get a 10mm PzIV (which I believe are available in Middlesbrough) scan that - probably using an App -, and then get someone with knowledge of the gizmos to print the full size version... perhaps in chocolate.
Though after sincere and semi-serious reflection I think your method may be more practical.
But if you made it out of chocolate, wouldn't there be the danger of the goat eating it ? :D
Cheers - Phil.
Theobromine is dangerous for goats, especially when your talking 40+ tonnes needed for a panzer iv.
More if it was a solid cast!
Not if it's the Mutant Star Goat.....That eats planets, doesn't it ? ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Techno on 15 January 2014, 07:37:14 PM
Not if it's the Mutant Star Goat.....That eats planets, doesn't it ? ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Theobromine is its Kryptonite :P
All right, who's been 3d printing them pink pills then?
No problem if you print them for yourself, but please do noy share them with half the forum!
8-} 8-}
Quote from: petercooman on 15 January 2014, 11:53:06 PM
All right, who's been 3d printing them pink pills then?
No problem if you print them for yourself, but please do noy share them with half the forum!
8-} 8-}
I ship most of mine to FSN :D
Same here....I thought everybody did that. :-\ ;)
Cheers - Phil
My pink pills come out green.... :o
Sure your not colour blind ?
IanS ;)
What do you make of this Steve?
http://www.kitguru.net/channel/generaltech/matthew-wilson/giant-3d-printer-can-build-a-house-in-24-hours/
Quote from: Fenton on 16 January 2014, 05:56:05 PM
What do you make of this Steve?
http://www.kitguru.net/channel/generaltech/matthew-wilson/giant-3d-printer-can-build-a-house-in-24-hours/
THAT is seriously cool!
Do they sell the spare cartridges at PC World?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heroforge/customizable-3d-printed-tabletop-miniatures (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heroforge/customizable-3d-printed-tabletop-miniatures)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 16 January 2014, 07:16:04 PM
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heroforge/customizable-3d-printed-tabletop-miniatures (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heroforge/customizable-3d-printed-tabletop-miniatures)
That's it Leon, Dave: the end is nigh...mwah hah hah :d :d :d
I refuse to pledge $45 to get one figure
Quote from: Fenton on 16 January 2014, 07:54:59 PM
I refuse to pledge $45 to get one figure
At an intangible date in the future, given Kickstarter's recent record.
Quote from: Fenton on 16 January 2014, 07:54:59 PM
I refuse to pledge $45 to get one figure
That's not even in "the right scale" ;)
Quote from: get2grips on 16 January 2014, 08:07:15 PM
That's not even in "the right scale" ;)
I wouldnt even pay that for one of Phil's
'special' sculpts!
What do you mean 'special' Steve ?
(I've turned down some things in the dim & distant past that might have been described as that !) ;)
Cheers - Phil
Probably a Centurion.
Quote from: Techno on 16 January 2014, 08:54:53 PM
What do you mean 'special' Steve ?
(I've turned down some things in the dim & distant past that might have been described as that !) ;)
Cheers - Phil
I think I had just been reading about Chaos Allstars
Ohhhhh......I was talking about one set of figures that I was asked to make, that I passed on to another designer.
Cheers - Phil.
Mind now officially boggling Phil!
I'll tell you a bit later. ;)
Cheers - Phil