I've just read the first of a series of articles in the latest Miniature Wargames magazine about the Mongol conquests and was wondering what rulebooks do you think would be good for the new Mongol range?
I've had a look through various topics about the Mongols and can't find anything about it.
Cheers, Colin
I haven't played them, but I have heard good things about Ironbow from the Perfect Captain. They are designed for the Crusades but cover Mamluks and Mongols.
http://perfectcaptain.50megs.com/ironbow.html
Warmaster Ancients covers the Mongol period, as does Hail Caesar IIRC.
Just thought of Fields of Glory which may cover said period.
Quote from: Steve J on 25 November 2013, 09:16:31 AM
Warmaster Ancients covers the Mongol period, as does Hail Caesar IIRC.
Thanks, Steve
Warmaster Ancients rather than Warmaster Medieval you think? Are they in the Warmaster Ancient Army book do you know?
Hi Albie,
They are in the Warmaster Medieval book.
If you ever need to chase a WM army list, check here ;)
http://www.ricks-warmaster.com/ricks_lists.htm
The problem with Mongol warfare is that it quite fluid and requires space
In Field of Glory the Mongols require a 6x4 table to be any good, smaller tables ie 5x3 in some competitions, don't leave any room for flank attacks or running away
I won a FOG V1 Competition using a Mongol Conquest army. My opponents were Jin, Republican Roman, Indian & Catalan Company
In each game it was a case of exploiting the rules to get the enemy to chase me in all directions and then picking off isolated units
FOG V2 is a bit different as it no longer requires units to chase after Light troops - I maybe wrong as I gave up on FOG and haven't played it
I've used Huns with Warmaster which allows cavalry to zoom around the table - no doubt Hello Caesar works in a similar fashion
As I intend to do pre-conquest Mongols ie Mongol against Mongol, I am tempted by Warmaster, HC or Battles For Empire or a combination of all 3
Quote from: Shedman on 25 November 2013, 09:59:49 AM
The problem with Mongol warfare is that it quite fluid and requires space
I've used Huns with Warmaster which allows cavalry to zoom around the table - no doubt Hello Caesar works in a similar fashion
Agree completely. Can't comment on other rules but WM (on a BIG table 6'x4' at least) allows battle changing manoeuvre.
Basic Impetus has a nice Mongol Army in it
Warmaster Medieval is just an army list book with some extra rules for the period, so you need the Warmaster Ancients rulebook as well to play the game. However you certainly get a lot in each book, especially stuff for campaigns, seiges etc, the former which you really want for the rampaging Mongol hordes I would have thought. He this helps?
I was going to use Hail Cheesy, as the army list limits mongol light horse to small units.
Planning on Mongol vs mongol to start with.
Quote from: Steve J on 25 November 2013, 10:42:41 AM
Warmaster Medieval is just an army list book with some extra rules for the period, so you need the Warmaster Ancients rulebook as well to play the game.
Ah right, thanks. I didn't know that. :-[
Quote from: Shedman on 25 November 2013, 09:59:49 AM
The problem with Mongol warfare is that it quite fluid and requires space
Yes, the article says its important to get these things right to represent a Mongol force properly. :)
The new figures look super, but I have to say I have always found light-cavalry specialist armies rather dull to use on the table. Effective, if the table's big enough, but dull. I've done Parthians, Scythians, Magyars, Palmyrenes, Huns, Mongols, Sioux, and Hsiung-Nu in my time, so I have honestly tried.
Hi,
I am currently writing "The Crescent and The Cross", my 10mm rules for the Crusades. However they could easily be used for Mongol shananigans :D just by adding some troops stats and army rules. The core rules will be available early next year all being well.
Cheers
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
Thank you for all the info and the links. The summary list is:
Warmaster Ancients
Hail Caesar
Fields of Glory
Battles For Empire
Basic Impetus
Perfect Captain - IronBow
and Craig's "The Cresent and The Cross" rules he is working on.
I'll have a look at any I can get hold of and take it from there.
It's a great looking range and not something I had considered until I saw the new masters and interest on this forum.
8)
I should warn you that Battles For Empire is a set of 19th Century Colonial rules
I just happen to use them for Ancients
Quote from: Shedman on 25 November 2013, 04:39:36 PM
I should warn you that Battles For Empire is a set of 19th Century Colonial rules
I just happen to use them for Ancients
Noted. As it happens I had a scan of them last week and did wonder about that.
Thanks for the warning anyway. :)
I plan to use Pike and Shotte, have used them for 16th century Turk v Persian and they give a good game
Hello Albie Bach
I'd also recommend Iron Bow (I'm a big fan of the Perfect Captain) and there is a new campaign system, Princes of the East II, coming out which will include the Mongols.
Also, although I haven't seen them, if you are a fan of Chris Peers' wargame rules there is Empires of the Steppes http://www.spiritgames.co.uk/single.php?menu=3&sub=19&tagno=7504&game=11424 (http://www.spiritgames.co.uk/single.php?menu=3&sub=19&tagno=7504&game=11424)
(http://www.spiritgames.co.uk/image/wgrules/11424.jpg)
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Thanks for those. I'll update my list to look at.
Thanks for the rules tips...
Quote from: FierceKitty on 25 November 2013, 11:17:52 AM
The new figures look super, but I have to say I have always found light-cavalry specialist armies rather dull to use on the table. Effective, if the table's big enough, but dull. I've done Parthians, Scythians, Magyars, Palmyrenes, Huns, Mongols, Sioux, and Hsiung-Nu in my time, so I have honestly tried.
Oh,
and Numidians.
Quote from: Albie Bach on 25 November 2013, 08:55:01 AM
I've just read the first of a series of articles in the latest Miniature Wargames magazine about the Mongol conquests and was wondering what rulebooks do you think would be good for the new Mongol range?
I've had a look through various topics about the Mongols and can't find anything about it.
Cheers, Colin
First off, a disclaimer. I have not used or read most of the modern post-DBM sets (Ptcha! Ptcha!) of rules that include Mongols but I'm sure that a fair amount of what I have written below is still applicable.
I have been fascinated by the Mongols which is one of the reasons I wrote those articles -hopefully to show others just how incredible their conquests were- and have found there are a number of things that the Mongols did which either have not -or cannot- be translated into a wargames set of rules that cover centuries of warfare rather than an 'in-period' set.
1. The Mongol C & C system under Chinggis Khan was streets ahead of nearly everybody else -especially the Europeans- and reflecting this in a set of rules almost makes the game unplayable. It is also extremely difficult to portray three of history's greatest commanders Chinggis Khan himself, Subedai Bahadur and Muqali on a wargames table in the same army.
2. I have yet to come across a set of rules that allows all the tricks the Mongols used, mainly because they were mostly strategic rather than tactical and the table simply isn't big enough. By this I refer to the nine day retreat before the Khalka River against the Russians/Cumans and the multi-pronged attack against the Russians at the River Sit.
3. Speed. The Mongols nearly always chose the terrain to fight over because they could outmaneuver their enemies and with patrols out as far as one hundred miles all round it was difficult to catch them napping.
4. Wargamers are all-seeing gods of the battlefield and unless hidden movement is part of the rules they will always be able to see where the next Mongol ambush is coming from.
5. The Mongol re-mount system has yet to be covered in a set of rules and as an adjunct, any detriment for riding blown horses.
6. The huge psychological advantage of believing you are the chosen people to rule the whole world. How do you incorporate that?
If there is a set out there that covers everything above then bite the traders hand off buying them, otherwise the only real answer is, in a nutshell, try writing your own.
I have to say there's little here that isn't as true of very many other periods, theatres, and armies.
i have empires of the steppes
seem good
history is reasonably accurate
i am getting rid of them aqs not pursuing the mongols
Quote from: FierceKitty on 04 March 2014, 03:57:51 PM
I have to say there's little here that isn't as true of very many other periods, theatres, and armies.
If we were talking generally then I would agree with you, but as we are only talking about the Mongols in this thread, at that particular time in history I think what I have written in my last post is still relevant.
Quote from: Subedai on 04 March 2014, 03:42:46 PM
First off, a disclaimer. I have not used or read most of the modern post-DBM sets (Ptcha! Ptcha!) of rules that include Mongols but I'm sure that a fair amount of what I have written below is still applicable.
I have been fascinated by the Mongols which is one of the reasons I wrote those articles -hopefully to show others just how incredible their conquests were- and have found there are a number of things that the Mongols did which either have not -or cannot- be translated into a wargames set of rules that cover centuries of warfare rather than an 'in-period' set.
1. The Mongol C & C system under Chinggis Khan was streets ahead of nearly everybody else -especially the Europeans- and reflecting this in a set of rules almost makes the game unplayable. It is also extremely difficult to portray three of history's greatest commanders Chinggis Khan himself, Subedai Bahadur and Muqali on a wargames table in the same army.
2. I have yet to come across a set of rules that allows all the tricks the Mongols used, mainly because they were mostly strategic rather than tactical and the table simply isn't big enough. By this I refer to the nine day retreat before the Khalka River against the Russians/Cumans and the multi-pronged attack against the Russians at the River Sit.
3. Speed. The Mongols nearly always chose the terrain to fight over because they could outmaneuver their enemies and with patrols out as far as one hundred miles all round it was difficult to catch them napping.
4. Wargamers are all-seeing gods of the battlefield and unless hidden movement is part of the rules they will always be able to see where the next Mongol ambush is coming from.
5. The Mongol re-mount system has yet to be covered in a set of rules and as an adjunct, any detriment for riding blown horses.
6. The huge psychological advantage of believing you are the chosen people to rule the whole world. How do you incorporate that?
If there is a set out there that covers everything above then bite the traders hand off buying them, otherwise the only real answer is, in a nutshell, try writing your own.
I hadn't realised you had written the articles. They were great & I saw the Editor's Note at the end of the third one that there are more to come. 8)
You have highlighted exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I asked the question about rules. I've had a quick flick through Ironbow & if I go ahead I think that'll be my first choice but I need to look at it more closely.
I entered the MW competition to try to win the Pendraken Mongol range goodies. I got a mention as a runner-up but no banana. Once I've made an inroad into the 4 for 3 Army Packs I got in the January sale I'll have another look at it.
I have used Basic Impetus ( Mongols v Russian medieval). Can be played in small space. My major reservation is that Light Cavalry are not much use in Basic Impetus, really only skirmish at long range and can get outshot by foot bows.Having said that, my Heavy Cavalry did the business pretty successfully as they were able to work a flank whilst the LC occupied main body of RussiansI think the full Impetus set gives a bit more flexibility to LC, so may be worth a look.
Quote from: Albie Bach on 04 March 2014, 09:02:06 PM
I hadn't realised you had written the articles. They were great & I saw the Editor's Note at the end of the third one that there are more to come. 8)
You have highlighted exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about when I asked the question about rules. I've had a quick flick through Ironbow & if I go ahead I think that'll be my first choice but I need to look at it more closely.
I entered the MW competition to try to win the Pendraken Mongol range goodies. I got a mention as a runner-up but no banana. Once I've made an inroad into the 4 for 3 Army Packs I got in the January sale I'll have another look at it.
Thanks. Yes, there are another three that cover the Russian and European Campaigns.
Subedei I too really enjoyed the Mongol articles in MW
It would be great if the next set are published too.
Rules that make good use of light cavalry are hard to find. Hail Caesar has some good elements, especially the evade, and that skirmishes act in a blob with no flanks. In fact these can make them a bit too good - and the LC spend the game peppering the enemy and running away - which is perhaps historical, but gets a bit tedious for the player on the receiving end.