Interesting discussion in this month's Wargames, Soldiers and Strategy about whether you consider yourself a gamer or a collector. The definitions are that a collector enjoys researching and painting figures and MAY use them to wargame historical scenarios. A gamer however is more focused on the rules mechanisms and how they can be used to best advantage, and is not particularly interested in how good the playing pieces look. I know what I am (clue: I have loads of Ospreys and WRG uniform books). So where do you stand on this?
Both
Definitly a gamer, mind you my painting is so bad I couldnt class myself as anything but.
Greetings
I think it's a false dichotomy.
I wouldn't have figures unless I wanted them to look broadly correct for the forces concerned (not that I necessarily enjoy the painting because I'm not very good at it) but I buy the figures with the intent to play - not to get best advantage out of a set of rules but to get a game with a look and feel that seems right for the period concerned.
Regards
Edward
I am a bit of both. I enjoy painting but am not very good at it and I also enjoy playing, again I am not very good as I have the worst dice rolls in our club ;D
I like playing armies that fit in with the background of the force they supposed to represent not having the all killing murdering combinations that some gamers field, you know them the I must win at all costs brigade. To me winning is the icing on the cake the hobby in my opinion is about having fun :D
QuoteInsert Quote
The definitions are that a collector enjoys researching and painting figures and MAY use them to wargame historical scenarios.
I enjoy the research and painting but want to use them to game historical scenarios. After all that is what wargaming is about as far as I'm concerned.
QuoteInsert Quote
A gamer however is more focused on the rules mechanisms and how they can be used to best advantage, and is not particularly interested in how good the playing pieces look.
I like rule sets that reflect the period being gamed but are also enjoyable to play. I'm not interested in seeking out the best way to play the rules. If they are good they will reward historically correct tactics, units etc on the table.
So for me, both but not in equal measure.
Both for me...
1) Cannot resist trying to buy EVERY possible combination of troops at a set points level (nominally 4000 for Warmaster). I feel like I have to be able to field any ossible combination (I need help :-[)
2) Love to see an army build up...even armies I don't really use that often.
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 19 November 2013, 12:31:43 PM
I think it's a false dichotomy.
Edward
Completely agree Edward ;)
I'm both too, i love the painting and the gaming equally. When we game i rather have a nice balanced fight instead of a one sided pummeling though. It's always nicer if everyone is having fun!
Both. I'm in the "can't paint very well so have to be a gamer", but I do spend a lot of time doing the research. It's where I get inspiration and lets me know if I've got the "feel" of the game right.
definite painter, haven't bung any dice in over 20 years. I like doing my research and I totally angst over the finished product. Then they get put in a box and never come out again :(
I'm beginning to thinks it's shameful so I'm hoping to try out some solo games next year. I'm not totally worried about historical accuracy when it comes to gaming (its gaming!). First game I play may well be Mongols V Romans, because why not :D
Definately both,
But bit fussy on the castings/models - If I don't like the casting I will not want to paint it.
Which often hamstrings my gaming side. ;D
W
I am both and a researcher as well. To me there are three parts to the hobby; research, painting, playing. I've listed them in that order beceause thats the order they normally happen in.
I love all three and the bit I enjoy most about the playing is the interaction with other "like minded" people.
I love the amount of info available via the internet that has made research so much faster and fruitful. The ability to collaborate via forums and yahoo groups is amazing and great fun, interacting with "like minded" people all over the world.
I can get a bit carried away on research. I have a Free French force for Flames of War. I found a reference to "sub-units of armoured cars and Foreign Legion" in the official NZ history and ended up with an 80 page background including the names of all the crews of all the Crusaders and half page biographies on all the officers in the force. :D
I hate painting, but do want them to look right.
I'm with Mr Hussar.
Don't mind painting vehicles, but hate painting figures.
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 19 November 2013, 12:31:43 PM
Greetings
I think it's a false dichotomy.
Edward is absolutely right. I wouldn't collect and paint (or get painted!) the model soldiers if I didn't want to game with them. I probably wouldn't be as devoted to the historical research on tactics, uniforms, battlefields etc, if I didn't have the miniatures hobby. It is not a pair of separate or parallel hobbies, it is one entirely absorbing whole. All the joy and intellectual excitement and stimulus I gain from walking battlefields and researching campaigns would be as nothing without this hobby.
Mollinary
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 19 November 2013, 12:31:43 PM
Greetings
I think it's a false dichotomy.
Edward is absolutely right. I wouldn't collect and paint (or get painted!) the model soldiers if I didn't want to game with them. I probably wouldn't be as devoted to the historical research on tactics, uniforms, battlefields etc, if I didn't have the miniatures hobby. It is not a pair of separate or parallel hobbies, it is one entirely absorbing whole. All the joy and intellectual excitement and stimulus I gain from walking battlefields and researching campaigns would be as nothing without this hobby.
Mollinary
Errr....a collector, I suppose but possibly at sometime a few solo campaigns. However, for me, it's the research and painting then into the box. Then onto the next, it's the zen of painting that I enjoy,I find that the preparation and painting has a quality of its own, whether I'm a good painter or not, is not relevant, as the figures are for me but I do my best to get them as top notch as possible. Each to his own
I agree also. For me, painting is a form of relaxation that furthers my interest in military history and allows me to play bigger and better games. I agree totally that any set of rules must favour the tactics that historically prevailed. I am not interested in looking for loopholes that will bring success at any price. For me, collecting and gaming are two aspects of the same process.
Well, having read that lot (and coming down in paulr's camp) I think I can say that the article in WS&S is rowlocks!
Most of the gamers I know are also collectors.
The collectors are rarely gamers.
Or to put it another way, if the games are important to you then the figures tend to be too but if the figures are the focus of your attention then gaming is often an irrelevance.
Lets face it if you're a military gamer but not into tiny soldiers then board or computer games are so much easier than tabletop ones!
Those who post here seem to be mainly gamers so maybe we're not a representative sample?
My two ha'porth.
I consider myself a gamer who never quite gets things together... I can't be a collector if it requires research and actually painting figures...
But I find the question highly relevant for a couple of Kickstart campaigns I've been watching lately (Mars Attacks! and Aliens Vs. Predator, both 28mm minis games), where it's increasingly obvious that most of the backers are only in it for the cool toys. Indeed, the AvP crows are treating the MA! project with scorn because their figures will be better detailed resin instead of cheap plastic. At about 3 times the price... :(
QuoteA gamer however is more focused on the rules mechanisms and how they can be used to best advantage, and is not particularly interested in how good the playing pieces look.
I think is more a definition of a games (rules) lawyer than areal gamer. I remember these types from my school wargmes club years and years ago where one guy would turn up with 1 PzIV, 6 Tiger I and 4 or 6 Tamiya Tiger II because the rules said these tanks existed in 1944 and they could blast the sh** out of our T/34s before we got in range. Since then I've shied away from clubs, which hasn't actually been too difficult as there are none near where I live :)
As I am therefore a solo gamer (mainly) I tend to be more of a collector, since I have to build up two armies (at least ;D) for each area of interest. Even though my painting skills are average at best, the underlying intention is to put a decent looking, historically accurate (as far as I can tell) force on the table for a scrap that I, and possibly one of our cats, will find entertaining. So I'm both, but probably more of a collector through force of circumsatnce.
Quote from: Malbork on 20 November 2013, 04:16:51 PM
I think is more a definition of a games (rules) lawyer than areal gamer. I remember these types from my school wargmes club years and years ago where one guy would turn up with 1 PzIV, 6 Tiger I and 4 or 6 Tamiya Tiger II because the rules said these tanks existed in 1944 and they could blast the sh** out of our T/34s before we got in range. Since then I've shied away from clubs, which hasn't actually been too difficult as there are none near where I live :)
That sounds like the guy who wouldn't fit in our gaming group ;D
For WW2 we have about 4 tigers and 3 tiger II's in our combined collections (there are two of us who have a german army, and we sometimes supplement each others forces to make scenarios work), and we have only used 1 tiger, and that in 2 games. For the rest we use pz IV, marder, stugs etc..
Gives for more interesting games actually, no relying on superior armour.
Quote from: petercooman on 20 November 2013, 07:01:17 PM
Gives for more interesting games actually, no relying on superior armour.
Agree completely. If I find a "killer combination" I stop using it or, and this is really fun, let my opponent use it and try to beat it.
It ain't the winning...it's how you win ;)
Actually the most fun games we played were our defense games. We put togheter the attacking army about a week before, and then each of the players may complete a list for the defender. The one who has the lowest points on his list (using the bkcII points system) gets to try and stop the attacker :D
Nice 8)
QuoteFor WW2 we have about 4 tigers and 3 tiger II's in our combined collections (there are two of us who have a german army, and we sometimes supplement each others forces to make scenarios work), and we have only used 1 tiger, and that in 2 games. For the rest we use pz IV, marder, stugs etc..
Same as me Peter. My German force is 3 Stug III and 5 Pz IV, which I've never used all together.
I'm now contemplating buying a Tiger I and a Tiger II for use with Battlegroup Fall of the Reich rules where most of the forces are pretty much ad hoc and the odd 'big beast' is acceptable and doesn't seem to upset the balance (at least from from a read through). I'm looking for a game which is fun and a reasonable simulation, rather than tryign to build up an unbeatable force.
A tiger or two can be great if you use it as an objective though! Like kelly's heroes, move in the town and kill the tigers!
During the Battle of the Bulge, Joachim Piper sent all his Tiger IIs to the rear of the column because he was so disgusted with their performance. That may give you some idea of how good they actually were.
From about the late 90s until this year I would probably call myself a collector more than a gamer. During that time I may have played one or two games a year and mostly at conventions where I ran games. So actually some years I didn't game other than setting up games for others to play. I collected many armies in different periods during that time all with the intent of actually playing some day.
This year I would consider myself a gamer as I have probably actually played more games this year than the previous ten combined. I have still amassed more figures this year but with the intent of playing not collecting.
I'm a collector/painter, never rolled a dice in anger, wouldn't know where to begin if I'm honest! :-[
I've had a fascination with the collecting side since I was knee high and started on airfix, must have had 20,000+ 1/72 plastics since then (sadly all traded away), it was only by chance that I saw a copy of 'practical wargamer' as a kid when with my mum I popped into a shop and I saw a french lancer on the cover and grabbed it.
From there, I realised that there was a whole community of gamers/painters and I guess it was just the quality of the pics and the lack of a gaming club nearby that cemented me as a collector/painter.
Having a massive unpainted lead mountain is a joy and a curse, joy because I've got a fair sized collection to drool over and a curse because I know I'll never paint everything I buy.
I'd love to game one day but am cautious as I wonder whether I'd enjoy it too much, get into it in a big way and lose the motivation to paint as often as I do.
That said, I will try it one day. :)
Cheers
Ry
Dear Mr Ry Man.
DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!
Invest in Don Featherstone's "War Games" and/or "Solo Wargaming". They're available on Amazon, even if they're the execrable John Curry reprints. Start small - a skirmish. The small unit game is perfect for many periods - the Viking raid, two Barons bumping heads, outpost work on the Coa 1809, paras vs bridge guards 1944 - and it gets your figure on a table and moving - gets you used to playing. Ignore the big rule sets, something quick and fun to whet your appetite. I am a solo wargamer by preference, and I have games that can go on for days. (I seem to remember a game that stopped until I had painted some Portuguese Cacadores who were due on as reinforcements.)
Look at a all your figures. Their little eyes pleading, their little voices squeaking "you spend so much time making us look good but you never let us do what we are designed to do. Would you buy a car and never drive it? Would you leave a bottle of wine undrunk? Would you get that Thai bride out the catalogue, the one you like on page 72, and never ..." Noisy little squeaky buggers - but you get the picture.
Don't be game-curious, jump in and have a whole new way of losing you evenings!
TRy something fast and free, there is loads around!
http://www.freewargamesrules.co.uk/
I find the motivation for painting is gaming. There's no greater spur to finishing a unit than "it's got to be ready by Sunday"!
Quote from: Hertsblue on 22 November 2013, 08:15:40 AM
I find the motivation for painting is gaming. There's no greater spur to finishing a unit than "it's got to be ready by Sunday"!
Completely agree ;)
Too true.
Greetings
At the moment my motivation is planning for a series of games in May 2014 - so Phase 2 of my 10mm SYW will be done in December and hopefully some 10mm WW2 desert in the Spring. However I'll get to solo game with my 10mm SYW as I test different rulesets using the same scenario. Each of the units (painted and in preparation and planned) are named units hopefully with correct or at least plausible uniforms and colours.
Regards
Edward